Are You Ready to Check Out? How to Survive the Hardest Seasons

I had no active I had no active suicidal thoughts, suicidal thoughts, suicidal thoughts, but felt that if but felt that if but felt that if If I died tomorrow, I would If I died tomorrow, I would If I died tomorrow, I would this is quite this is quite this is quite It was convenient. It was convenient. It was convenient. I guess I'm ready for I guess I'm ready for I guess I'm ready for statements. One of statements. One of statements. One of people I like people I like people I like called to called to called to discuss this discuss this discuss this situation, was Dallas situation, was Dallas situation, was Dallas Willard. With Dallas Willard. With Dallas Willard. With Dallas was always long was always long was always long pause. And then he pause. And then he pause. And then he said: "This will be said: "This will be said: "This will be your test your test your test joyful confidence joyful confidence joyful confidence in God." Well, in God." Well, in God." Well, let's check let's check let's check your joyful your joyful your joyful confidence in God. confidence in God. confidence in God. Welcome to Welcome to Welcome to Kerry New's podcast Kerry New's podcast Goff on leadership. I Goff on leadership. I Goff on leadership. I so glad you so glad you so glad you joined us. joined us. joined us. This is a personal conversation. This is a personal conversation. This is a personal conversation. I sit down with mine. I sit down with mine. I sit down with mine. wife Anne Voskamp wife Anne Voskamp wife Anne Voskamp and John Ortberg and John Ortberg and John Ortberg for the conversation you would for the conversation you would for the conversation you would would have if we had dinner with would have if we had dinner with would have if we had dinner with by us. We are talking about by us. We are talking about by us. We are talking about how to trust how to trust how to trust To God, when you don't To God, when you don't To God, when you don't understand the spiritual understand the spiritual understand the spiritual formation in formation in formation in instant culture. What instant culture. What instant culture. What to do when God to do when God to do when God silent, what to say silent, what to say silent, what to say and not to speak when and not to speak when and not to speak when Someone is suffering. And I don't Someone is suffering. And I don't Someone is suffering. And I don't I think I once... I think I once... ever put someone ever put someone ever put someone this question is in the podcast this question is in the podcast this question is in the podcast earlier. What would you do? earlier. What would you do? earlier. What would you do? believed, if not believed, if not believed, if not Were you a Christian? It Were you a Christian? It Were you a Christian? It really interesting. It really interesting. It really interesting. It fascinating conversation. AND fascinating conversation. AND fascinating conversation. AND one of the things that I one of the things that I one of the things that I I'm trying to do this. I'm trying to do this. I'm trying to do this. invite you to invite you to invite you to rooms so we can rooms so we can rooms so we can to chat with to chat with to chat with leaders just like leaders just like leaders just like would you have dinner with would you have dinner with would you have dinner with them. And all this for the sake of them. And all this for the sake of them. And all this for the sake of a large project, over a large project, over a large project, over which Tony works already which Tony works already which Tony works already several years. Uh, several years. Uh, several years. Uh, if you had told me, if you had told me, if you had told me, and I say this at the end and I say this at the end and I say this at the end interview if she interview if she interview if she told me two years told me two years told me two years So, you know what? I So, you know what? I So, you know what? I I am going to write.

I am going to write. I am going to write. the book along with some the book along with some the book along with some leading authors leading authors leading authors world. We all world. We all world. We all we will work we will work we will work free of charge and free of charge and free of charge and we will sacrifice our we will sacrifice our we will sacrifice our profit on profit on profit on charity. And here it is charity. And here it is charity. And here it is Who am I going to? Who am I going to? Who am I going to? to invite. I am going to invite. I am going to invite. I am going invite John invite John invite John Orberga, Ann Voskamp, Orberga, Ann Voskamp, Orberga, Ann Voskamp, Nikki and Pippa Gumble, Nikki and Pippa Gumble, Nikki and Pippa Gumble, Mark Batterson. I Mark Batterson. I Mark Batterson. I I'll invite Jenny Lusko, I'll invite Jenny Lusko, I'll invite Jenny Lusko, Amy Grezell to Amy Grezell to Amy Grezell to cooperation. I think that cooperation. I think that cooperation. I think that I will invite Mark. I will invite Mark. I will invite Mark. Clark. I think I am Clark. I think I am Clark. I think I am I'll invite you, you know, I'll invite you, you know, I'll invite you, you know, Rebecca Lyons. I Rebecca Lyons. I Rebecca Lyons. I like this: how are you like this: how are you like this: how are you are you going to do this? are you going to do this? are you going to do this? make? But she is make? But she is make? But she is did. And that's not it yet. did. And that's not it yet. did. And that's not it yet. all. This is incredible. AND all. This is incredible. AND all. This is incredible. AND 100% of the profits from this 100% of the profits from this 100% of the profits from this books "Honesty" books "Honesty" books "Honesty" before God", which you before God", which you before God", which you you can buy you can buy you can buy now, separately now, separately now, separately copy or copy or copy or wholesale, exclusively wholesale, exclusively wholesale, exclusively at honest togodbook.com, goes to at honest togodbook.com, goes to at honest togodbook.com, goes to "Compassion" and " "Compassion" and " Convoy of Hope, two Convoy of Hope, two Convoy of Hope, two charitable charitable charitable organizations in which we organizations in which we organizations in which we We truly believe. We We truly believe. We We truly believe. We we want to make the world we want to make the world we want to make the world the best place and the best place and the best place and to help people to help people to help people to connect with God. to connect with God. to connect with God. That's what it does. That's what it does. That's what it does. this book. That this book. That this book. That discuss the fight discuss the fight discuss the fight with suffering in with suffering in with suffering in in this life, we have in this life, we have in this life, we have Tony, Anne and John. Tony, Anne and John. Tony is a pharmacist, Tony is a pharmacist, lawyer, mediator, lawyer, mediator, lawyer, mediator, podcaster, author, podcaster, author, podcaster, author, speaker and many others speaker and many others . Also my wife, with . Also my wife, with . Also my wife, with which we lived 36 which we lived 36 which we lived 36 years, is an editor years, is an editor years, is an editor books "Honesty" books "Honesty" books "Honesty" before God." She before God." She before God." She writes part writes part writes part content, but also, eh content, but also, eh -e, is an editor who -e, is an editor who -e, is an editor who collected all this. Oh, and is collected all this. Oh, and is collected all this. Oh, and is I remembered that Terry I remembered that Terry I remembered that Terry Lee Cobble does Lee Cobble does Lee Cobble does Bible commentaries Bible commentaries Bible commentaries before this? It before this? It before this? It fascinating in the book " fascinating in the book " Honesty before God Honesty before God ". In any case, ". In any case, ". In any case, Anne Voskamp is the author Anne Voskamp is the author Anne Voskamp is the author New York Times bestsellers.

New York Times bestsellers. New York Times bestsellers. She wrote She wrote She wrote numerous books that numerous books that numerous books that help readers help readers help readers find grace and find grace and find grace and to live with gratitude as to live with gratitude as to live with gratitude as in the middle of the ordinary in the middle of the ordinary in the middle of the ordinary life, and in difficult times life, and in difficult times life, and in difficult times periods. And John periods. And John periods. And John Orberg served Orberg served Orberg served pastor-mentor pastor-mentor pastor-mentor at Willow Creek Church at Willow Creek Church at Willow Creek Church until 2003, when he became until 2003, when he became until 2003, when he became the senior pastor of the senior pastor of the senior pastor of Presbyterian Presbyterian Presbyterian Menlo Park Church in Menlo Park Church in Menlo Park Church in Northern California Northern California . He is now leading . He is now leading . He is now leading Become New ministry, Become New ministry, Become New ministry, focused on focused on focused on helping people helping people helping people to grow spiritually. And in to grow spiritually. And in to grow spiritually. And in he is incredible he is incredible he is incredible new podcast « new podcast « Formation with John Formation with John Formation with John Orberg. I never Orberg. I never Orberg. I never I don't miss any. I don't miss any. I don't miss any. episode called " episode called " Formation with John Formation with John Formation with John Orberg. So I want Orberg. So I want Orberg. So I want listen to them. And now listen to them. And now listen to them. And now our extensive conversation with our extensive conversation with our extensive conversation with Tony, John and Tony, John and Tony, John and others...So really others...So really others...So really nice to collect this nice to collect this nice to collect this small group small group small group friends, um, and spouses friends, um, and spouses friends, um, and spouses for this. Tony and for this. Tony and for this. Tony and John, that's really great. John, that's really great. that you are here today. that you are here today. that you are here today. Thank you very much for that. Thank you very much for that. Thank you very much for that. joined us. joined us. joined us. Well, it's great to be here. Well, it's great to be here. Well, it's great to be here. Thank you. And I'm glad you Thank you. And I'm glad you Thank you. And I'm glad you see. see. see. It's so good to be with you. It's so good to be with you. It's so good to be with you. everyone. Kerry and Tony, everyone. Kerry and Tony, everyone. Kerry and Tony, you are close friends, with you are close friends, with you are close friends, with which we have many times which we have many times which we have many times shared here, for shared here, for shared here, for Farmer's table. AND Farmer's table. AND Farmer's table. AND Darl and I had Darl and I had Darl and I had joy of communication joy of communication joy of communication in your home. So yes in your home. So yes in your home. So yes grateful. John, what grateful. John, what grateful. John, what grace and gift grace and gift grace and gift just sit by just sit by just sit by microphone for microphone for microphone for podcast and podcast and podcast and to rely on that to rely on that to rely on that The Lord has for us.

The Lord has for us. The Lord has for us. Yes. Yes. Yes. Well, it's not real. Well, it's not real. Well, it's not real. John. He in advance John. He in advance John. He in advance admitted that he sent admitted that he sent admitted that he sent your bot. AND your bot. AND Is this true? Is this true? The real me The real me The real me actually much actually much actually much younger. Yes, we are younger. Yes, we are younger. Yes, we are a little "old" a little "old" a little "old" weed so that people don't weed so that people don't weed so that people don't felt, uh, felt, uh, felt, uh, intimidated. Or intimidated. Or intimidated. Or can we do this can we do this can we do this now, John? You now, John? You now, John? You will have to give will have to give will have to give give us your tips. give us your tips. give us your tips. Yes, we can do that. Yes, we can do that. Yes, we can do that. make. make. make. So, actually, I want to So, actually, I want to So, actually, I want to start with a note about start with a note about start with a note about AI, because it was mine AI, because it was mine AI, because it was mine exploration hole. THERE ARE exploration hole. THERE ARE -hey, we're with you -hey, we're with you -hey, we're with you we write at the same time we write at the same time we write at the same time books, Tony, that I don't books, Tony, that I don't books, Tony, that I don't I recommend it, but our I recommend it, but our I recommend it, but our marriage will not only survive marriage will not only survive , but also very good , but also very good , but also very good this season will pass. But this season will pass. But this season will pass. But we probably won't we probably won't we probably won't order a repeat order a repeat order a repeat this. But I think that this. But I think that this. But I think that one of the spiritual one of the spiritual one of the spiritual artificial intelligence calls artificial intelligence calls artificial intelligence calls intelligence consists in intelligence consists in intelligence consists in because you get because you get because you get immediate responses to immediate responses to immediate responses to all. Regardless of all. Regardless of all. Regardless of moreover, these are correct moreover, these are correct moreover, these are correct answers or answers or answers or wrong, he wrong, he wrong, he responds instantly. And you responds instantly. And you responds instantly. And you both are well acquainted both are well acquainted both are well acquainted with expectation of God with expectation of God . All three are fine.

. All three are fine. . All three are fine. familiar with familiar with familiar with waiting on God waiting on God waiting on God for a long time for a long time for a long time response time or response time or response time or answers that never answers that never answers that never They don't come. So, I They don't come. So, I They don't come. So, I I would like to, and again I would like to, and again I would like to, and again Yes, it's free. Yes, it's free. Yes, it's free. discussion, so if in discussion, so if in discussion, so if in you have something to say to me you have something to say to me you have something to say to me about the issue, in about the issue, in about the issue, in We are three guests. We are three guests. We are three guests. Join us. If not Join us. If not , then it's okay. , then it's okay. But I would like to hear But I would like to hear your thoughts on that your thoughts on that your thoughts on that will happen if people will happen if people will happen if people will start expecting will start expecting will start expecting immediate responses immediate responses immediate responses even from AI, which even from AI, which even from AI, which pretends to be God, pretends to be God, pretends to be God, unlike how unlike how unlike how the true God is at work. the true God is at work. John, can we John, can we start with you from this start with you from this start with you from this question, because you are many question, because you are many question, because you are many thought about silence and thought about silence and thought about silence and travel delay. travel delay. Yes. Uh, I remember, uh- uh, Rich Mao, who uh, Rich Mao, who uh, Rich Mao, who many years many years many years studied at the seminary studied at the seminary studied at the seminary Fuller, once Fuller, once Fuller, once told about told about told about conversation with a group conversation with a group conversation with a group theologians, theologians, which, uh, felt which, uh, felt a little depressed, a little depressed, a little depressed, when they sometimes when they sometimes when they sometimes attacked by people who attacked by people who attacked by people who were very convinced, were very convinced, were very convinced, that is the only one that is the only one that is the only one Christian position Christian position Christian position is to is to is to to believe that the Earth was to believe that the Earth was to believe that the Earth was literally created literally created literally created for seven 24-hour periods for seven 24-hour periods for seven 24-hour periods days. Of course, this days. Of course, this days. Of course, this a topic that many a topic that many a topic that many people have a lot people have a lot people have a lot different opinions. But this one different opinions. But this one different opinions. But this one specific theologian specific theologian specific theologian said to Rich: "Isn't it said to Rich: "Isn't it said to Rich: "Isn't it people don't understand that people don't understand that people don't understand that God never God never God never "in a hurry?" And I "in a hurry?" And I "in a hurry?" And I thought that was it thought that was it thought that was it really interesting really interesting really interesting observations regarding observations regarding observations regarding God. And, uh, you know, God. And, uh, you know, God. And, uh, you know, there will be such hints there will be such hints there will be such hints about, uh, days like about, uh, days like about, uh, days like a thousand years, that's it a thousand years, that's it a thousand years, that's it perception of time somewhat perception of time somewhat perception of time somewhat differs from differs from differs from ours. And, uh, for ours. And, uh, for ours. And, uh, for for God to exist for God to exist for God to exist in eternity, this in eternity, this in eternity, this means that he

means that he means that he there just isn't one there just isn't one there just isn't one same impatience, and it has same impatience, and it has same impatience, and it has to happen immediately, as in to happen immediately, as in to happen immediately, as in us. And I forgot who it is us. And I forgot who it is us. And I forgot who it is was. Someone once was. Someone once was. Someone once said, very often, said, very often, said, very often, when we think about when we think about when we think about waiting for waiting for waiting for Gentlemen, what is for us? Gentlemen, what is for us? Gentlemen, what is for us? It's really hard, uh, It's really hard, uh, It's really hard, uh, who we become while who we become while who we become while we are waiting, much we are waiting, much we are waiting, much more important than that, on more important than that, on more important than that, on what we think, what we think, what we think, We are waiting. We are waiting. So the expectation, uh, is So the expectation, uh, is deep part deep part deep part character formation character formation . And the need . And the need . And the need to wait for something and have to wait for something and have to wait for something and have the opportunity to live with the opportunity to live with the opportunity to live with a sense of endurance, a sense of endurance, a sense of endurance, gratitude or gratitude or gratitude or courage, or still courage, or still courage, or still to worry about to worry about to worry about other people, even other people, even other people, even when I myself am waiting for when I myself am waiting for when I myself am waiting for something unresolved, something unresolved, something unresolved, makes me grow makes me grow makes me grow so that if I so that if I so that if I just got what just got what just got what I wanted, when I wanted, I I wanted, when I wanted, I I wanted, when I wanted, I I would never do that. I would never do that. I would never do that. did. So yes, I did. So yes, I did. So yes, I I think, uh, that one of I think, uh, that one of I think, uh, that one of many speakers with many speakers with many speakers with artificial intelligence, artificial intelligence, artificial intelligence, which is worth mentioning which is worth mentioning which is worth mentioning to think, is to to think, is to to think, is to therefore, whether it satisfies therefore, whether it satisfies therefore, whether it satisfies he our need for he our need for he our need for immediate immediate immediate satisfaction and satisfaction and satisfaction and solving the problem, and solving the problem, and solving the problem, and does it distract us from does it distract us from does it distract us from ability to wait with ability to wait with ability to wait with patience. It patience. It patience. It would cause would cause would cause concern.

concern. concern. Anne, what about you? What, Anne, what about you? What, Anne, what about you? What, This is so wonderful. I think This is so wonderful. I think , sometimes we think about , sometimes we think about , sometimes we think about what we want God to do what we want God to do what we want God to do did something quickly, did something quickly, did something quickly, when God is slow when God is slow when God is slow something is happening to us. And I something is happening to us. And I something is happening to us. And I I think it's, um, me. I think it's, um, me. I think it's, um, me. I think this is a translation. I think this is a translation. I think this is a translation. letter. Uh, Eugene letter. Uh, Eugene letter. Uh, Eugene used the phrase that used the phrase that used the phrase that there is an expectation there is an expectation there is an expectation justifiable. And I justifiable. And I justifiable. And I I think that if we I think that if we I think that if we we are trying to get around, we are trying to get around, we are trying to get around, hmm, waiting and hmm, waiting and hmm, waiting and pregnancy, which pregnancy, which pregnancy, which takes place in takes place in takes place in waiting, or waiting, or waiting, or we give birth to something, we give birth to something, we give birth to something, what is actually already what is actually already what is actually already mint is born? What mint is born? What mint is born? What this immediacy this immediacy this immediacy actually gives us actually gives us actually gives us something that doesn't have something that doesn't have something that doesn't have real life. AND real life. AND real life. AND when we think about, when we think about, when we think about, hmm, about love, then this hmm, about love, then this hmm, about love, then this what the Holy Spirit tells us what the Holy Spirit tells us what the Holy Spirit tells us Writing? Love Writing? Love Writing? Love patient. This is not this one. patient. This is not this one. patient. This is not this one. spontaneity. AND spontaneity. AND spontaneity. AND etymology of the word " etymology of the word " "patient" actually "patient" actually "patient" actually means to suffer. AND means to suffer. AND means to suffer. AND are we ready are we ready are we ready actually sit in actually sit in actually sit in this space this space this space waiting and waiting and waiting and allow allow allow suffering suffering suffering actually outgrow actually outgrow actually outgrow into something better? So, into something better? So, into something better? So, when we live in when we live in when we live in the era of artificial the era of artificial the era of artificial intelligence when we intelligence when we intelligence when we we want everything we want everything we want everything immediately, we bypass immediately, we bypass immediately, we bypass it. If the expectation— it. If the expectation— this is letting go this is letting go this is letting go something, so that something something, so that something something, so that something actually grew, then actually grew, then actually grew, then if we have something if we have something if we have something it is necessary immediately that it is necessary immediately that it is necessary immediately that is it actually growing? It is it actually growing? It is it actually growing? It really good really good really good fruit or artificial fruit or artificial fruit or artificial fruit, sealed fruit, sealed fruit, sealed with tape?

with tape? Tony, what about you? Tony, what about you? When you think about When you think about When you think about your life and your your life and your your life and your a spiritual journey that a spiritual journey that a spiritual journey that has begun for you has begun for you has begun for you around 20 years old? around 20 years old? around 20 years old? You have come to faith. You have come to faith. You have come to faith. at about 20 years old. at about 20 years old. at about 20 years old. Start...Yes, in Start...Yes, in Start...Yes, in mid 20s. mid 20s. mid 20s. To begin...I would say, well To begin...I would say, well , at 23 years old is when this , at 23 years old is when this , at 23 years old is when this started. started. started. But we had you. But we had you. But we had you. quite young quite young quite young Christian. Christian. Christian. Yes, I was. Uh, with Yes, I was. Uh, with Yes, I was. Uh, with For years I have felt that For years I have felt that For years I have felt that grew in knowledge grew in knowledge grew in knowledge waiting and waiting and awareness of what awareness of what is waiting is waiting is waiting value, thanks to value, thanks to value, thanks to own experience. As own experience. As own experience. As I was joking before. I was joking before. , my spiritual , my spiritual , my spiritual Becoming is not that, Becoming is not that, Becoming is not that, that I got into the jaguar and that I got into the jaguar and that I got into the jaguar and left. left. It's like I'm being pulled into It's like I'm being pulled into horse-drawn carriage. Uh, horse-drawn carriage. Uh, horse-drawn carriage. Uh, just sometimes just sometimes just sometimes it seems that this it seems that this it seems that this slow and slow and slow and difficult pace. But I difficult pace. But I difficult pace. But I I heard it before. I heard it before. I heard it before. explained that, uh, explained that, uh, explained that, uh, When God heals, he When God heals, he When God heals, he heals deeply and heals deeply and heals deeply and gives us only gives us only gives us only as much as we as much as we as much as we we can cope in we can cope in we can cope in this moment in time.

this moment in time. So, uh, it's almost like So, uh, it's almost like peel the onion peel the onion . You know, one layer . You know, one layer . You know, one layer need to heal, need to heal, need to heal, before we are before we are before we are ready to move on ready to move on ready to move on next. So, next. So, next. So, I think I had to. I think I had to. I think I had to. heal a lot heal a lot heal a lot for many for many for many years. Hmm, it seems years. Hmm, it seems years. Hmm, it seems what a journey it was what a journey it was what a journey it was length in length in length in decades, but very decades, but very decades, but very saturated. And now, saturated. And now, saturated. And now, Looking back, I would Looking back, I would Looking back, I would didn't ask for anything didn't ask for anything didn't ask for anything another. Mrs another. Mrs Carrie, when we want, Carrie, when we want, in the era of artificial in the era of artificial in the era of artificial intelligence, or intelligence, or intelligence, or we strive we strive we strive the urgency that the urgency that the urgency that we can get we can get we can get thanks to artificial thanks to artificial thanks to artificial intelligence, because intelligence, because intelligence, because we are afraid of what, what we are afraid of what, what we are afraid of what, what actually there is this actually there is this actually there is this urgency? It urgency? It urgency? It aspiration, hmm, we aspiration, hmm, we aspiration, hmm, we we are afraid that not we are afraid that not we are afraid that not we will be able to produce we will be able to produce we will be able to produce quickly enough. We quickly enough. We quickly enough. We we are afraid of our own we are afraid of our own we are afraid of our own restrictions. Hmm, now I restrictions. Hmm, now I restrictions. Hmm, now I I am working on I am working on I am working on doctoral doctoral doctoral dissertation with dissertation with dissertation with spiritual formation spiritual formation spiritual formation in Sular, Biola, with in Sular, Biola, with in Sular, Biola, with Dr. Ko, and Dr. Dr. Ko, and Dr. Dr. Ko, and Dr. Who says that, um, Who says that, um, Who says that, um, spiritual growth— spiritual growth— this is the slowest this is the slowest this is the slowest process in space, and I process in space, and I process in space, and I found in this found in this found in this great comfort. And whether we great comfort. And whether we great comfort. And whether we gravitates towards AI because we gravitates towards AI because we gravitates towards AI because we we are afraid of slow we are afraid of slow we are afraid of slow process and process and process and slow growth slow growth , and we need , and we need , and we need urgency, so that urgency, so that urgency, so that try faster try faster try faster bear fruit? I have bear fruit? I have bear fruit? I have meaning that you meaning that you meaning that you found in their found in their found in their research, Kerry?

research, Kerry? research, Kerry? No, it's really good. No, it's really good. No, it's really good. question. I have on question. I have on question. I have on mind you, I think we mind you, I think we mind you, I think we everyone somehow everyone somehow everyone somehow acclimatize to acclimatize to acclimatize to temperatures temperatures temperatures surrounding surrounding surrounding our environment our environment our environment age. So, if you age. So, if you age. So, if you have an entrepreneurial spirit have an entrepreneurial spirit have an entrepreneurial spirit a tendency, like me, to a tendency, like me, to a tendency, like me, to I am not here. I am not here. I am not here. natural, uh, natural, uh, natural, uh, contemplative contemplative contemplative approach. And I know that in approach. And I know that in approach. And I know that in in our marriage one of in our marriage one of in our marriage one of things you always things you always things you always you have, Carrie, this is what you have, Carrie, this is what you have, Carrie, this is what you need to be you need to be you need to be more patient. You more patient. You more patient. You need to be more need to be more need to be more patient. Well, I already patient. Well, I already patient. Well, I already long enough long enough long enough waited patiently. waited patiently. waited patiently. It never came. It never came. It never came. So, you know, it's not mine. So, you know, it's not mine. So, you know, it's not mine. Is it my inclination? Is it my inclination? Is it my inclination? temperament, but I temperament, but I temperament, but I I think we are being dragged along, I think we are being dragged along, I think we are being dragged along, you know, we, we, we, we you know, we, we, we, we you know, we, we, we, we were in the economy were in the economy were in the economy attention. Um, some people attention. Um, some people attention. Um, some people they say it's now they say it's now they say it's now economy economy economy attachment. Fair attachment. Fair attachment. Fair saying, I don't know what saying, I don't know what saying, I don't know what they have it they have it they have it mind, but I think mind, but I think mind, but I think the answers become the answers become the answers become available quickly. I available quickly. I available quickly. I I remember the times when I remember the times when I remember the times when our children were our children were our children were younger, they younger, they younger, they were born on were born on were born on beginning and middle beginning and middle beginning and middle 9 years old. Um, I 9 years old. Um, I 9 years old. Um, I I remember how it appeared. I remember how it appeared. I remember how it appeared. YouTube. Our eldest son YouTube. Our eldest son YouTube. Our eldest son just entered just entered just entered adolescence. adolescence. adolescence. The youngest was The youngest was The youngest was about 10 years. And I about 10 years. And I about 10 years. And I noticed that they noticed that they noticed that they bet less bet less bet less questions. I asked questions. I asked questions. I asked about this our about this our about this our the eldest, and he the eldest, and he the eldest, and he replied: "Yes, Dad, replied: "Yes, Dad, replied: "Yes, Dad, we go to YouTube and we go to YouTube and we go to YouTube and Google. And I replied: "Oh Google. And I replied: "Oh ". Part of me ". Part of me ". Part of me upset about this, upset about this, upset about this, because we all belong to because we all belong to because we all belong to of a certain generation, of a certain generation, of a certain generation, when we were when we were when we were younger, you just younger, you just younger, you just asked his/her asked his/her asked his/her parents, you asked parents, you asked parents, you asked neighbor, you asked neighbor, you asked neighbor, you asked someone in church, and someone in church, and someone in church, and half of the cases half of the cases half of the cases was the answer: "I was the answer: "I was the answer: "I I don't know," or read I don't know," or read I don't know," or read Encyclopedia Encyclopedia Encyclopedia A brat or something A brat or something A brat or something like this. And that was it. AND like this. And that was it. AND like this. And that was it. AND I think that this I think that this I think that this there is nothing there is nothing there is nothing bad. Meanwhile,

bad. Meanwhile, bad. Meanwhile, you know, everyone who is you know, everyone who is you know, everyone who is listens, grew up in listens, grew up in listens, grew up in the era of YouTube and Google, and the era of YouTube and Google, and the era of YouTube and Google, and now also search for now also search for now also search for with the help of artificial with the help of artificial with the help of artificial intelligence and intelligence and intelligence and instant artificial instant artificial instant artificial intelligence. So, I intelligence. So, I intelligence. So, I I think it's simple. I think it's simple. I think it's simple. affects the pace and affects the pace and affects the pace and speed. Only for speed. Only for speed. Only for the last 20 years, the last 20 years, the last 20 years, after I after I after I burned out, after that, burned out, after that, burned out, after that, like all my speed like all my speed like all my speed the first decade the first decade the first decade plus leadership plus leadership plus leadership caught up with me, I caught up with me, I caught up with me, I really enough really enough really enough slowed down. And I, slowed down. And I, slowed down. And I, I don't think I know who. I don't think I know who. I don't think I know who. said that, but I think said that, but I think that under the silence that under the silence that under the silence Fear lurks. Me Fear lurks. Me Fear lurks. Me It was very difficult in It was very difficult in It was very difficult in my 30s, before that, my 30s, before that, my 30s, before that, how I burned out, how I burned out, how I burned out, enough enough enough to slow down in order to to slow down in order to to slow down in order to listen because I was afraid listen because I was afraid listen because I was afraid to discover for oneself to discover for oneself to discover for oneself things I don't want things I don't want things I don't want to know about yourself. And this to know about yourself. And this to know about yourself. And this was my main was my main was my main obstacle to obstacle to obstacle to appeal for appeal for appeal for psychologist: I understood psychologist: I understood that maybe I that maybe I that maybe I dysfunctional, dysfunctional, dysfunctional, but it works for me here but it works for me here but it works for me here some kind of magic. some kind of magic. some kind of magic. For example, For example, For example, look how look how look how The church is growing. AND The church is growing. AND The church is growing. AND if you start with if you start with if you start with contact me, contact me, contact me, Mr. psychologist, you Mr. psychologist, you Mr. psychologist, you you can kill what you can kill what you can kill what God uses. It God uses. It God uses. It very twisted very twisted very twisted logic. I don't believe it.

logic. I don't believe it. logic. I don't believe it. I think that health I think that health I think that health brings absolutely brings absolutely brings absolutely other fruits than other fruits than other fruits than dysfunction. But I don't dysfunction. But I don't dysfunction. But I don't I know if this is I know if this is I know if this is answers this answers this answers this question. Do you have question. Do you have question. Do you have other opinions on other opinions on other opinions on speed? speed? speed? Well, just so that Well, just so that Well, just so that to play for a minute to play for a minute to play for a minute devil's advocate devil's advocate devil's advocate for fun. for fun. for fun. Well, this is your bot, so Well, this is your bot, so Well, this is your bot, so continue. continue. continue. I like... I like... Yes, that's true. I am not in favor. Yes, that's true. I am not in favor. Yes, that's true. I am not in favor. that I don't answer because I that I don't answer because I that I don't answer because I bot, just a glitch bot, just a glitch bot, just a glitch system. system. Uh, I was thinking today, Uh, I was thinking today, I am working on some I am working on some I am working on some things and I would like things and I would like things and I would like to know which to know which to know which research on research on research on self-awareness vs. self-awareness vs. self-awareness vs. self-awareness. self-awareness. self-awareness. Uh, and uh, Uh, and uh, Uh, and uh, many people many people many people wake up, wake up, wake up, researching this, John researching this, John . So keep going. Yes . So keep going. Yes . Yes. . Yes. . Yes. Oh, I thought that was a lot Oh, I thought that was a lot Oh, I thought that was a lot people today people today people today tuned in. They tuned in. They tuned in. They wanted to know what wanted to know what wanted to know what difference. difference. difference. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Self-awareness vs. Self-awareness vs. Self-awareness vs. self-awareness. self-awareness. self-awareness. Self-awareness is Self-awareness is Self-awareness is consciousness. When consciousness. When consciousness. When I, you know, when I I, you know, when I I, you know, when I self-aware, this self-aware, this self-aware, this barrier. Are you worried? barrier. Are you worried? barrier. Are you worried? What are you thinking about? As What are you thinking about? As What are you thinking about? As What does it look like? I What does it look like? I What does it look like? I I'm worried. I am very I'm worried. I am very I'm worried. I am very concerned about others concerned about others concerned about others people, unlike people, unlike people, unlike from self-awareness, from self-awareness, from self-awareness, when I'm calm, uh, when I'm calm, uh, when I'm calm, uh, I can appreciate that I I can appreciate that I I can appreciate that I I think and what I feel. I think and what I feel.

So, to be able to So, to be able to turn to AI and turn to AI and turn to AI and to find out, uh, no to find out, uh, no to find out, uh, no going to the library going to the library going to the library or write somewhere, yes, or write somewhere, yes, or write somewhere, yes, here is the research, here is here is the research, here is here is the research, here is key articles, here key articles, here key articles, here magazines, here is the material magazines, here is the material which can be studied. which can be studied. which can be studied. I like it, I like it, I like it, and I think it's great and I think it's great and I think it's great for free. for free. So, you know, I think, So, you know, I think, that in AI, as in that in AI, as in that in AI, as in technologies in general, technologies in general, technologies in general, there are wonderful aspects of it there are wonderful aspects of it , and there are also dangerous ones. AND , and there are also dangerous ones. AND , and there are also dangerous ones. AND part of the difficulties with part of the difficulties with part of the difficulties with technologies consists of technologies consists of technologies consists of in that it is difficult for us in that it is difficult for us in that it is difficult for us to know or foresee to know or foresee to know or foresee in advance, uh, then, in advance, uh, then, in advance, uh, then, that potential harm, that potential harm, that potential harm, which they can which they can which they can to inflict, prevails to inflict, prevails to inflict, prevails potential benefit, potential benefit, potential benefit, which they can which they can which they can to inflict. So I will say, to inflict. So I will say, to inflict. So I will say, that there is a part that I that there is a part that I that there is a part that I I love and believe I love and believe I love and believe good. I think that good. I think that good. I think that God was glad that I God was glad that I God was glad that I was able to quickly find these was able to quickly find these was able to quickly find these things. things. And then I constantly And then I constantly I think, returning. I think, returning. I think, returning. to "That's right, John." to "That's right, John." to "That's right, John." This is an opportunity This is an opportunity This is an opportunity to find things like this to find things like this to find things like this like Carrie, like you like Carrie, like you like Carrie, like you Do you remember, for example, Do you remember, for example, Do you remember, for example, we can go to we can go to we can go to libraries and libraries and libraries and to look for it, while to look for it, while to look for it, while you can, for example, you can, for example, you can, for example, enter a query in the line enter a query in the line enter a query in the line search and find these search and find these search and find these answers. And at the same time answers. And at the same time answers. And at the same time I continue I continue I continue to hold on to that to hold on to that to hold on to that says Augustine: "God, says Augustine: "God, says Augustine: "God, putting aside our putting aside our putting aside our hope, expands our hope, expands our hope, expands our desire".

desire". Oh, that's so good, Oh, that's so good, desire expands desire expands desire expands mind, stretching mind, stretching mind, stretching him, makes him him, makes him him, makes him more spacious. And I more spacious. And I more spacious. And I I keep thinking: oh, I keep thinking: oh, I keep thinking: oh, What am I doing wrong? What am I doing wrong? What am I doing wrong? I lose, wanting I lose, wanting I lose, wanting things immediately, so things immediately, so things immediately, so I actually...I I actually...I I actually...I actually...I think actually...I think actually...I think that I move faster, that I move faster, that I move faster, Kerry, getting Kerry, getting Kerry, getting more and more more and more more and more more from more from more from the immediacy of AI. the immediacy of AI. But am I getting around that? But am I getting around that? how God wants to develop how God wants to develop how God wants to develop my mind and my mind and my mind and expand my expand my expand my mind, expand mind, expand mind, expand my wishes that I my wishes that I my wishes that I was more spacious and was more spacious and was more spacious and had more had more had more possibilities to accommodate possibilities to accommodate possibilities to accommodate more of Him? I think more of Him? I think more of Him? I think that these are difficult questions that these are difficult questions . This makes me . This makes me to realize that, to realize that, you know, we have you know, we have you know, we have opportunity now opportunity now opportunity now fill our entire fill our entire fill our entire time searching, time searching, time searching, quick answers quick answers , so, you know, let's , so, you know, let's , so, you know, let's let's move on to let's move on to let's move on to next, let's next, let's next, let's let's move on to let's move on to let's move on to next, because we next, because we next, because we we can. Maybe have we can. Maybe have we can. Maybe have such a pace. But to be such a pace. But to be such a pace. But to be conscious of the fact that conscious of the fact that conscious of the fact that to keep yourself in to keep yourself in to keep yourself in at a pace that allows at a pace that allows at a pace that allows stock that is still stock that is still stock that is still this space allows.

this space allows. For example, in the past For example, in the past you could spend you could spend you could spend time to get there time to get there time to get there to the library to to the library to to the library to find the right one find the right one find the right one information, and during information, and during information, and during this walk with you this walk with you this walk with you it would be time it would be time it would be time to chat with to chat with to chat with By God. Now we By God. Now we By God. Now we need to be conscious need to be conscious need to be conscious build this into our build this into our build this into our schedules. And also in schedules. And also in schedules. And also in relations with relations with relations with librarian when librarian when librarian when are you talking to him are you talking to him are you talking to him and open the books, and open the books, and open the books, in a random, in a random, in a random, providential grace providential grace providential grace to stumble upon something to stumble upon something to stumble upon something anything else you're talking about anything else you're talking about anything else you're talking about you think: "Oh, you think: "Oh, you think: "Oh, look at this, look at this, look at this, it really is it really is it really is related to this related to this related to this in such a way that, in such a way that, in such a way that, maybe the answer maybe the answer maybe the answer artificial intelligence artificial intelligence artificial intelligence won't give you this won't give you this won't give you this random connection random connection random connection between two different between two different between two different ideas." ideas." ideas." This episode This episode This episode presented to you presented to you presented to you thanks to my foundation thanks to my foundation thanks to my foundation master class "Foundation master class "Foundation master class "Foundation of the future. So of the future. So of the future. So I like it I like it I like it to be able to to be able to to be able to to chat with to chat with to chat with my wife, with my wife, with my wife, with John Orberg and John Orberg and John Orberg and Anne Wasamp, and I Anne Wasamp, and I Anne Wasamp, and I I hope you I hope you I hope you will also like it. will also like it. will also like it. We briefly We briefly We briefly talked, and then talked, and then talked, and then let's go back to let's go back to let's go back to conversations. So, there is conversations. So, there is conversations. So, there is part of the conversation about part of the conversation about part of the conversation about artificial intelligence in artificial intelligence in artificial intelligence in church, about which more church, about which more church, about which more no one really no one really no one really says, and she says, and she says, and she concerns concerns concerns donations. I know, donations. I know, donations. I know, that we just released that we just released that we just released book, we are talking book, we are talking book, we are talking about her, but what about her, but what about her, but what will happen with will happen with will happen with donations, yours donations, yours donations, yours donations when donations when donations when jobs will start jobs will start jobs will start change? So, change? So, change? So, believe it or not, it's not believe it or not, it's not believe it or not, it's not It will happen someday.

It will happen someday. It will happen someday. Labor markets are already Labor markets are already Labor markets are already are changing. And when are changing. And when are changing. And when people's incomes people's incomes people's incomes stagger, stagger stagger, stagger stagger, stagger and donations. It and donations. It and donations. It actually one of actually one of actually one of three changes in my three changes in my three changes in my a new book that I a new book that I a new book that I I call it "Create" I call it "Create" I call it "Create" your shock absorbers your shock absorbers your shock absorbers now. Before now. Before now. Before they are for you they are for you they are for you will be needed, not will be needed, not will be needed, not after". But such after". But such after". But such change is needed change is needed change is needed more than a chapter. AND more than a chapter. AND more than a chapter. AND I want to point out to you I want to point out to you I want to point out to you one of ours one of ours one of ours the most valuable resources the most valuable resources the most valuable resources for church for church for church leadership. He leadership. He leadership. He called "Fund" called "Fund" called "Fund" future master- future master- class. I helped. class. I helped. class. I helped. create it from create it from create it from so wonderful so wonderful so wonderful leaders like Craig leaders like Craig leaders like Craig Rell, Chris Hodes and Rell, Chris Hodes and Rell, Chris Hodes and others. It is built others. It is built others. It is built on one idea. on one idea. on one idea. Most churches Most churches Most churches stuck in stuck in stuck in transactional transactional transactional talking about money, talking about money, talking about money, whereas what whereas what whereas what actually holds and actually holds and actually holds and is a game changer, it is a game changer, it is a game changer, it a culture of generosity, and a culture of generosity, and a culture of generosity, and we will show you how to do it we will show you how to do it we will show you how to do it create. Culture create. Culture create. Culture much generosity much generosity much generosity easier to build, easier to build, easier to build, when everything is stable, when everything is stable, when everything is stable, than before than before than before A crisis will come. So, A crisis will come. So, A crisis will come. So, if the donation is in if the donation is in if the donation is in your church does not your church does not your church does not corresponds to the mission, to corresponds to the mission, to corresponds to the mission, to which, in your opinion, which, in your opinion, which, in your opinion, God is calling you, God is calling you, God is calling you, start here. That start here. That start here. That start, go start, go start, go at caryneuhoff.com/fundthe future. at caryneuhoff.com/fundthe future.

at caryneuhoff.com/fundthe future. To get To get To get instant access, instant access, instant access, go to go to go to kyneu-hoff.com/fundthe future. This kyneu-hoff.com/fundthe future. This kyneu-hoff.com/fundthe future. This episode presented episode presented episode presented you thanks to the dialogue with you thanks to the dialogue with you thanks to the dialogue with Ed Stzer. Church Ed Stzer. Church Ed Stzer. Church is experiencing time, not is experiencing time, not is experiencing time, not similar to none of the similar to none of the similar to none of the our previous ones. our previous ones. our previous ones. Artificial intelligence Artificial intelligence Artificial intelligence changes the way we changes the way we changes the way we working as we do working as we do working as we do we learn and we learn and we learn and we understand what it means we understand what it means we understand what it means to be human. to be human. to be human. Institutions Institutions Institutions fragmented. fragmented. fragmented. The truth is becoming more and more The truth is becoming more and more The truth is becoming more and more harder to recognize. AND harder to recognize. AND harder to recognize. AND church leaders church leaders church leaders need more than need more than need more than just another thread just another thread just another thread information. Every week in information. Every week in information. Every week in Ed Stzer collects Ed Stzer collects Ed Stzer collects theologians, pastors, theologians, pastors, theologians, pastors, researchers and researchers and researchers and representatives representatives representatives cultures for cultures for cultures for thoughtful conversations about thoughtful conversations about thoughtful conversations about what is happening in what is happening in what is happening in church at that moment, church at that moment, church at that moment, when this happens. when this happens. when this happens. It also helps It also helps It also helps listeners to think listeners to think listeners to think over what they mean over what they mean over what they mean these changes, where can these changes, where can these changes, where can church to move and how church to move and how church to move and how Christian leaders Christian leaders Christian leaders can be true can be true can be true respond. respond. respond. Listen to the dialogue with Listen to the dialogue with Listen to the dialogue with Ed Stzer, Ed Stzer, Ed Stzer, available everywhere available everywhere available everywhere you listen to podcasts. you listen to podcasts. While we're recording this, While we're recording this, it's only a week before it's only a week before it's only a week before my death my death my death beloved beloved beloved writer and writer and writer and thinker, Wendel thinker, Wendel thinker, Wendel Barry.

Barry. And, uh, Wendell And, uh, Wendell wrote a great essay wrote a great essay wrote a great essay about 40 years ago about 40 years ago about 40 years ago entitled "Why Me" entitled "Why Me" entitled "Why Me" I will never buy. I will never buy. I will never buy. computer". OK. computer". OK. computer". OK. And, uh, he says And, uh, he says And, uh, he says a lot about what a lot about what a lot about what you just spoke. AND you just spoke. AND you just spoke. AND he said: "In that he said: "In that he said: "In that the day someone the day someone the day someone will show that Tom will show that Tom will show that Tom Aquinas could Aquinas could Aquinas could write more and better write more and better than he would if he had than he would if he had than he would if he had computer thanks to computer thanks to computer thanks to computer, then I computer, then I computer, then I "I'll buy it." "I'll buy it." "I'll buy it." This is so good, John. This is so good, John. This is so good, John. Was he faithful? Was he faithful? Was he faithful? this until his death this until his death ? Did you know? ? Did you know? ? Did you know? Uh, not only him, uh, Uh, not only him, uh, Uh, not only him, uh, I was like that. I was like that. I was like that. excited. It excited. It excited. It true story. true story. true story. Maybe three months Maybe three months Maybe three months because, because I just because, because I just because, because I just always loved him always loved him always loved him works. I got this one works. I got this one works. I got this one wonderful, very wonderful, very wonderful, very personal, uh, personal, uh, personal, uh, email from email from email from Wendell Barry, and he Wendell Barry, and he Wendell Barry, and he told about one of told about one of told about one of the books I have written, and, the books I have written, and, the books I have written, and, uh, uh, uh, how much is she how much is she how much is she meaningful, and that its meaningful, and that its meaningful, and that its really needed really needed really needed to make public, and in to make public, and in to make public, and in he had a plan he had a plan how to help this. how to help this. how to help this. And I was like that And I was like that And I was like that excited because excited because excited because again, it's like again, it's like again, it's like tracked my tracked my tracked my career like all these career like all these career like all these wonderful things. But in wonderful things. But in wonderful things. But in it has several lines it has several lines , which were a little , which were a little , which were a little strange. As it was before strange. As it was before strange. As it was before It's said, you know, this It's said, you know, this It's said, you know, this the book was very small the book was very small the book was very small good result in good result in good result in in printed form, in printed form, in printed form, in audio format and in in audio format and in in audio format and in reviews. This is somehow reviews. This is somehow reviews. This is somehow It's strange that a person can do that.

It's strange that a person can do that. It's strange that a person can do that. write. So I write. So I write. So I contacted the Center contacted the Center contacted the Center Berry. No, he is mine. Berry. No, he is mine. Berry. No, he is mine. didn't write at all. It didn't write at all. It didn't write at all. It was just AI. It was just AI. It was just AI. It bad AI, bad AI, bad AI, and AI is deceiving me, and AI is deceiving me, and AI is deceiving me, demanding money. Oho demanding money. Oho . . . So no, I never So no, I never So no, I never heard from Wendell Berry heard from Wendell Berry , and now he's gone. , and now he's gone. , and now he's gone. Even with all your Even with all your Even with all your banking banking banking information, he is so information, he is so information, he is so and did not return. Unless and did not return. Unless and did not return. Unless Don't you think? No. No. Don't you think? No. No. Don't you think? No. No. I sent him I sent him I sent him lots and lots of money, lots and lots of money, lots and lots of money, like the Nigerian one like the Nigerian one like the Nigerian one to the prince who is now to the prince who is now to the prince who is now waiting for release. waiting for release. waiting for release. And I won't even say And I won't even say And I won't even say you, what will come of this, you, what will come of this, truth? This is strange, and that's why I'm like this This is strange, and that's why I'm like this grateful for the work, grateful for the work, grateful for the work, which you all do. But which you all do. But which you all do. But you know, one of you know, one of you know, one of projects, which, as you projects, which, as you projects, which, as you you know, one of you know, one of you know, one of subtitles subtitles subtitles project is to trust project is to trust project is to trust God, if you don't God, if you don't God, if you don't you understand. you understand. M. and I believe that as M. and I believe that as leaders, this podcast leaders, this podcast leaders, this podcast about leadership, us about leadership, us about leadership, us always pushing always pushing always pushing to clarity, to that, to clarity, to that, to clarity, to that, that we find meaning that we find meaning that we find meaning in his absence, in his absence, in his absence, what do we need what do we need what do we need the answer that we the answer that we the answer that we you need to know that you need to know that you need to know that do. Meanwhile, do. Meanwhile, do. Meanwhile, below the waterline, there is below the waterline, there is below the waterline, there is many things that we many things that we many things that we We don't understand. THERE ARE We don't understand. THERE ARE We don't understand. THERE ARE many things that I many things that I many things that I I don't understand. Many I don't understand. Many I don't understand. Many aspects of God aspects of God aspects of God I don't have a character.

I don't have a character. I don't have a character. I understand. And I would like to I understand. And I would like to I understand. And I would like to so that each of you so that each of you so that each of you shared a story shared a story shared a story about time in your about time in your about time in your life when you life when you life when you didn't really have didn't really have didn't really have idea of ​​what makes idea of ​​what makes idea of ​​what makes God, and this is you God, and this is you God, and this is you It was annoying because, I think, It was annoying because, I think, It was annoying because, I think, we are all through this we are all through this we are all through this passed. passed. Well, I'll tell you. Well, I'll tell you. about one real one about one real one about one real one a recent conversation, and a recent conversation, and a recent conversation, and then I will tell you a little then I will tell you a little then I will tell you a little more personally about it more personally about it , but, uh, we were in , but, uh, we were in , but, uh, we were in vacation. We were driving. vacation. We were driving. vacation. We were driving. by bus to the place by bus to the place by bus to the place destination, and I destination, and I destination, and I sat next to two sat next to two sat next to two people, and they people, and they people, and they They asked me what They asked me what They asked me what I work, therefore I I work, therefore I I work, therefore I told them that told them that told them that worked as a pastor, worked as a pastor, worked as a pastor, is usually good is usually good is usually good way to stop way to stop way to stop conversation, but in this conversation, but in this conversation, but in this case it turned out that case it turned out that case it turned out that they were both they were both they were both Jews. Mother of this Jews. Mother of this Jews. Mother of this woman just died in woman just died in woman just died in at the age of 99, and she at the age of 99, and she at the age of 99, and she survived the Holocaust, eh- survived the Holocaust, eh- uh, in the camp, and all the others uh, in the camp, and all the others uh, in the camp, and all the others her family members were her family members were her family members were killed, killed, and his family too and his family too was destroyed was destroyed was destroyed The Holocaust. So they The Holocaust. So they The Holocaust. So they said: "We would very much said: "We would very much said: "We would very much wanted to know." She wanted to know." She wanted to know." She said: "I would very much said: "I would very much said: "I would very much wanted to know where he was wanted to know where he was wanted to know where he was God, because it ruined God, because it ruined God, because it ruined "my mother's faith." And, uh "my mother's faith." And, uh , I am very well.

, I am very well. , I am very well. realized that in realized that in realized that in that moment, er, I have that moment, er, I have that moment, er, I have there was no answer to there was no answer to there was no answer to this is a question. And I could this is a question. And I could this is a question. And I could to talk about it to talk about it to talk about it more abstractly in more abstractly in more abstractly in some moment or some moment or some moment or to talk about what to talk about what to talk about what I think that God I think that God I think that God creates people creates people creates people free because he free because he free because he values ​​personality, and values ​​personality, and values ​​personality, and this means that we this means that we this means that we should be, uh, should be, uh, should be, uh, free too free too free too to choose wrongly to choose wrongly to choose wrongly Is it bad? I thought, Is it bad? I thought, Is it bad? I thought, uh, what would that be, uh, uh, what would that be, uh, uh, what would that be, uh, you know, kind of you know, kind of you know, kind of pastorally pastorally pastorally negligence in such a negligence in such a negligence in such a moment and incredible moment and incredible moment and incredible heartless and uh heartless and uh heartless and uh Couldn't God? Couldn't God? Couldn't God? to create a world so that to create a world so that to create a world so that so that people would be so that people would be so that people would be free without free without free without The Holocaust, or is that enough? The Holocaust, or is that enough? The Holocaust, or is that enough? happen, and uh, yeah, uh happen, and uh, yeah, uh , , I think that, uh, I think that, uh, following Jesus following Jesus following Jesus remains remains remains the best option, the best option, the best option, available for available for available for humanity. I believe that humanity. I believe that humanity. I believe that that's true, but I have that's true, but I have that's true, but I have there is no answer to this there is no answer to this there is no answer to this question. Uh, I'm nothing. question. Uh, I'm nothing. question. Uh, I'm nothing. couldn't say. couldn't say. couldn't say. This is how you answered. This is how you answered. This is how you answered. As if I didn't have As if I didn't have As if I didn't have answers to this answers to this answers to this question. question. question. Yes, that's right. This is me. Yes, that's right. This is me. Yes, that's right. This is me. very disturbing, and, uh, very disturbing, and, uh, very disturbing, and, uh, You know, we'll talk.

You know, we'll talk. You know, we'll talk. a little more than that; a little more than that; a little more than that; but yes, it was, I didn't but yes, it was, I didn't but yes, it was, I didn't I know, and I think, uh, I I know, and I think, uh, I I know, and I think, uh, I was involved in was involved in was involved in situations, uh, where was situations, uh, where was situations, uh, where was church, and there was church, and there was church, and there was unlawful unlawful unlawful behavior, and many behavior, and many behavior, and many people, especially women people, especially women , very deep , very deep , very deep suffered, and it was suffered, and it was suffered, and it was very difficult very difficult very difficult try to understand try to understand , how to react to this. AND , how to react to this. AND , uh, at least in , uh, at least in , uh, at least in in one case, in one case, in one case, just for decades just for decades just for decades suffering that this suffering that this suffering that this side of heaven, I don't side of heaven, I don't side of heaven, I don't I know it will happen someday. I know it will happen someday. I know it will happen someday. redeemed or healed, redeemed or healed, and, uh, I don't know, uh and, uh, I don't know, uh Couldn't God? Couldn't God? Couldn't God? find some way out, find some way out, find some way out, who wouldn't have this who wouldn't have this who wouldn't have this include, I, I don't know, include, I, I don't know, and I mean that and I mean that suffering or suffering or suffering or there were misunderstandings there were misunderstandings there were misunderstandings for the most part for the most part for the most part your service. I your service. I your service. I I mean, when you I mean, when you I mean, when you look at the story look at the story look at the story your life, your family, your life, your family, your life, your family, tragedy, suffering, tragedy, suffering, tragedy, suffering, I ask you to choose.

I ask you to choose. I ask you to choose. one episode, but one episode, but one episode, but you know, for example, you know, for example, you know, for example, when, when there was time, and when, when there was time, and when, when there was time, and where you thought: God, I where you thought: God, I where you thought: God, I I really don't have one. I really don't have one. I really don't have one. the idea that you the idea that you the idea that you do. do. Yes. Oh, I think everyone Yes. Oh, I think everyone we were in such a we were in such a we were in such a condition, Kerry, in certain condition, Kerry, in certain condition, Kerry, in certain moments of our lives. moments of our lives. moments of our lives. Something for me. Hmm, "100" Something for me. Hmm, "100" Something for me. Hmm, "100" gifts", the first gifts", the first gifts", the first the book I wrote, the book I wrote, the book I wrote, begins with the fact that begins with the fact that begins with the fact that that I am four years old, and that I am four years old, and that I am four years old, and I am standing on a chair. I am standing on a chair. I am standing on a chair. near the kitchen near the kitchen near the kitchen sinks, mom washes sinks, mom washes sinks, mom washes dishes, and I leave dishes, and I leave dishes, and I leave Farmhouse windows Farmhouse windows Farmhouse windows house. I house. I house. I I am watching my I am watching my I am watching my 18-month-old sister, 18-month-old sister, 18-month-old sister, who follows the cat who follows the cat who follows the cat in the farmyard, and in the farmyard, and in the farmyard, and service truck not service truck not service truck not noticed her, knocked her down and noticed her, knocked her down and noticed her, knocked her down and killed in front of me killed in front of me killed in front of me and my mom, and I and my mom, and I and my mom, and I I'm trying I'm trying I'm trying to orient oneself in to orient oneself in to orient oneself in this, being this, being this, being a small child, and a small child, and I encounter all sorts of I encounter all sorts of fears that this is so fears that this is so fears that this is so a world where you can a world where you can a world where you can to watch as to watch as to watch as someone is being killed someone is being killed someone is being killed right before your eyes. AND right before your eyes. AND right before your eyes. AND then, um, in 2021 we then, um, in 2021 we then, um, in 2021 we lost my father lost my father lost my father in the same yard in the same yard in the same yard farms, in the same place, farms, in the same place, farms, in the same place, in the same way. Hmm, in the same way. Hmm, in the same way. Hmm, and I think one thing and I think one thing and I think one thing business, when something business, when something business, when something happens once, happens once, happens once, and when something and when something and when something happens twice, you happens twice, you happens twice, you you think: okay, you think: okay, you think: okay, God, why? Why?

God, why? Why? God, why? Why? Why? And I think that Why? And I think that Why? And I think that each of us every day each of us every day each of us every day opens news and opens news and opens news and reads stories. We reads stories. We reads stories. We we think: "Oh God, I we think: "Oh God, I , I think I would write , I think I would write , I think I would write This is completely different. I would This is completely different. I would This is completely different. I would didn't write this didn't write this didn't write this history yes. I don't know history yes. I don't know how people can how people can how people can to withstand such to withstand such to withstand such pain and suffering." AND pain and suffering." AND pain and suffering." AND I, I think, what I, I think, what I, I think, what I'm coming back again and I'm coming back again and I'm coming back again and again, Kerry, this is what again, Kerry, this is what , hmm, this world , hmm, this world , hmm, this world consists not only of consists not only of consists not only of Adams. This is a world that Adams. This is a world that Adams. This is a world that consists of various consists of various consists of various ways. And I don't know how ways. And I don't know how ways. And I don't know how my story is related my story is related my story is related with someone's story, like with someone's story, like with someone's story, like it is related to it is related to it is related to someone's story. AND someone's story. AND someone's story. AND after all, the only one who after all, the only one who after all, the only one who understands and can understands and can understands and can put put put choreography of all choreography of all choreography of all of our stories, this is the one, of our stories, this is the one, of our stories, this is the one, who says, "I am the way, who says, "I am the way, who says, "I am the way, truth and life." And I truth and life." And I truth and life." And I I think that for me, I think that for me, I think that for me, I just had to. I just had to. ...those are the last words ...those are the last words ...those are the last words Jesus on the cross...in Jesus on the cross...in Jesus on the cross...in Your hands, Lord, I Your hands, Lord, I Your hands, Lord, I I give. I have to live in I give. I have to live in I give. I have to live in this pose of surrender this pose of surrender ...just...I give ...just...I give ...just...I give All this, Lord, in All this, Lord, in All this, Lord, in Your hands. And simply Your hands. And simply Your hands. And simply going back to that, going back to that, going back to that, as understanding the cause as understanding the cause as understanding the cause suffering is more important, suffering is more important, suffering is more important, than knowledge itself than knowledge itself than knowledge itself God who stands with God who stands with God who stands with us in this. So, I us in this. So, I us in this. So, I I think that's it for me.

I think that's it for me. I think that's it for me. moved from need moved from need moved from need to understand deeply to understand deeply to understand deeply comfort in the fact that comfort in the fact that comfort in the fact that in the middle of my in the middle of my in the middle of my misunderstanding God misunderstanding God misunderstanding God stands with me. Its stands with me. Its stands with me. Its testimony, His testimony, His testimony, His testimony and His testimony and His testimony and His presence is mine presence is mine presence is mine the deepest comfort. the deepest comfort. You, Anne, remind me of You, Anne, remind me of about one experience that about one experience that about one experience that I had, when, um, we were I had, when, um, we were I had, when, um, we were Carrie was going through that Carrie was going through that Carrie was going through that difficult period difficult period difficult period struggle in our struggle in our struggle in our marriage. I wonder, you too. marriage. I wonder, you too. marriage. I wonder, you too. I thought about that. I thought about that. I thought about that. Yes. I talked about this. Yes. I talked about this. Yes. I talked about this. publicly and wrote about publicly and wrote about publicly and wrote about this is why I don't this is why I don't this is why I don't I'm not telling any stories. I'm not telling any stories. I'm not telling any stories. stories outside of school. stories outside of school. stories outside of school. Hey, honey. Hey, honey. Hey, honey. We can add that. We can add that. We can add that. But we, um, passed. But we, um, passed. But we, um, passed. through a period through a period through a period struggle, which was struggle, which was for me it's simple for me it's simple incomprehensible and so incomprehensible and so incomprehensible and so confused because confused because confused because we united as two we united as two we united as two Christians. We are jealous Christians. We are jealous Christians. We are jealous followed Christ. followed Christ.

We took it upon ourselves We took it upon ourselves responsibility for responsibility for responsibility for three churches here, on three churches here, on three churches here, on north of Toronto, and north of Toronto, and north of Toronto, and we wholeheartedly we wholeheartedly we wholeheartedly took care of these took care of these took care of these churches, and at the same time churches, and at the same time churches, and at the same time we just got into we just got into we just got into period period period interpersonal interpersonal interpersonal the struggle that was the struggle that was the struggle that was just a spiral just a spiral just a spiral conflict, which we, conflict, which we, conflict, which we, it seemed they couldn't it seemed they couldn't it seemed they couldn't overcome. And so it was. overcome. And so it was. overcome. And so it was. a lot of pain and so on a lot of pain and so on a lot of pain and so on many misunderstandings, many misunderstandings, many misunderstandings, and we were...I can and we were...I can and we were...I can to speak only for oneself to speak only for oneself . I was like that. . I was like that. . I was like that. disappointed and, uh, disappointed and, uh, disappointed and, uh, asked God why, asked God why, asked God why, for example, why you for example, why you for example, why you led me to this led me to this led me to this marriage? Why us marriage? Why us marriage? Why us found themselves in such found themselves in such found themselves in such circumstances? Now, circumstances? Now, circumstances? Now, Looking back, I Looking back, I Looking back, I I know I had some I know I had some I know I had some relation to that, relation to that, relation to that, what was happening. So, uh what was happening. So, uh -uh, you know, it's not...I don't -uh, you know, it's not...I don't -uh, you know, it's not...I don't I'm hinting that I was I'm hinting that I was I'm hinting that I was just a victim and, uh, just a victim and, uh, just a victim and, uh, had no role in had no role in had no role in because of what was happening. because of what was happening. Uh, but at the same time I Uh, but at the same time I wondered, wondered, wondered, Why, God, did you bring Why, God, did you bring Why, God, did you bring me to this relationship me to this relationship if you knew what it was if you knew what it was if you knew what it was will cause such will cause such will cause such personal level personal level personal level pain? But I remember, pain? But I remember, pain? But I remember, like one day I like one day I like one day I just cried on just cried on just cried on bed, and as if bed, and as if bed, and as if felt like tears felt like tears felt like tears Jesus fall on me Jesus fall on me , and had this vision , and had this vision , and had this vision His proximity. And I His proximity. And I His proximity. And I I think that at that moment I think that at that moment I think that at that moment my questions about

my questions about my questions about why, just why, just why, just dissolved. I have dissolved. I have dissolved. I have there was a feeling that there was a feeling that there was a feeling that Jesus sees me. He Jesus sees me. He Jesus sees me. He here with me, and, friend, here with me, and, friend, here with me, and, friend, we had a lot we had a lot we had a lot work, and thank God, work, and thank God, work, and thank God, that He led us that He led us that He led us because of this. because of this. Hmm, but understanding...no Hmm, but understanding...no I can say that I I can say that I I can say that I once reached a point once reached a point once reached a point understanding, but that understanding, but that understanding, but that very touching very touching very touching clear experience of clear experience of clear experience of that Jesus was with me, that Jesus was with me, that Jesus was with me, was actually was actually was actually enough to enough to enough to help me help me help me to survive the following to survive the following to survive the following moments, hours and moments, hours and moments, hours and days. days. Yes. My thoughts Yes. My thoughts plunged there, to plunged there, to plunged there, to that lowest point that lowest point that lowest point in our marriage, 25-23 in our marriage, 25-23 in our marriage, 25-23 years ago, whatever it is years ago, whatever it is years ago, whatever it is was, in the timeline. was, in the timeline. was, in the timeline. And the part that I And the part that I And the part that I I really didn't understand, because, I really didn't understand, because, I really didn't understand, because, obviously in the mirror obviously in the mirror obviously in the mirror I have a rear view I have a rear view I have a rear view there were problems...I there were problems...I there were problems...I significantly contributed significantly contributed significantly contributed dysfunctions in our dysfunctions in our dysfunctions in our marriage. And you know, our marriage. And you know, our marriage. And you know, our church very quickly church very quickly church very quickly grew; I am a little grew; I am a little grew; I am a little counted at the beginning counted at the beginning counted at the beginning this year, it was this year, it was this year, it was over 30% complex over 30% complex over 30% complex growth over 11 growth over 11 growth over 11 years, so you years, so you years, so you start in this start in this start in this orientate. And this orientate. And this orientate. And this it wasn't like that it wasn't like that it wasn't like that scale, John, as in scale, John, as in scale, John, as in churches that you churches that you churches that you led or to which led or to which led or to which entered, entered, entered, but it was one of those but it was one of those but it was one of those things where public things where public things where public the platform was the platform was the platform was so successful, so successful, so successful, and private and private and private reality reality reality spirally spirally spirally dropped to the point, dropped to the point, dropped to the point, when I was like this when I was like this when I was like this exhausted. I was not exhausted. I was not exhausted. I was not a good husband. I a good husband. I a good husband. I was not good. I am not was not good. I am not was not good. I am not was patient. You know was patient. You know , I was present. AND, , I was present. AND, , I was present. AND, fortunately for us, uh, fortunately for us, uh, fortunately for us, uh, you know, in you know, in you know, in sexually, sexually, sexually, You know, I don't

You know, I don't You know, I don't deviated from deviated from deviated from our marriage or something our marriage or something our marriage or something like this. We didn't have to. like this. We didn't have to. like this. We didn't have to. from this from this from this recover, but this recover, but this recover, but this was more like was more like was more like that my character that my character that my character needed a deep needed a deep needed a deep reformation, and this reformation, and this reformation, and this began to manifest began to manifest began to manifest first at home, and first at home, and first at home, and then, you know, then, you know, then, you know, the staff was not so the staff was not so the staff was not so healthy as after healthy as after healthy as after after I recovered after I recovered after I recovered from burnout, etc., from burnout, etc., from burnout, etc., etc. But what I etc. But what I etc. But what I could not accept it, and this could not accept it, and this could not accept it, and this can speak to some can speak to some can speak to some to people who are now to people who are now to people who are now are experiencing this are experiencing this are experiencing this period, that's what I period, that's what I period, that's what I felt like felt like felt like the blessing that I the blessing that I the blessing that I received in received in received in public public public service, as if service, as if service, as if covered everything. As if covered everything. As if covered everything. As if you just you just you just You're seeing it wrong. You're seeing it wrong. You're seeing it wrong. Tony. As if you see, Tony. As if you see, Tony. As if you see, How wonderful am I? As if I How wonderful am I? As if I How wonderful am I? As if I I wouldn't have said that. I I wouldn't have said that. I I wouldn't have said that. I didn't believe it. But didn't believe it. But didn't believe it. But looking back, looking back, it is clear that if it is clear that if God bless this, God bless this, God bless this, this can't be true this can't be true this can't be true bad as you think. bad as you think. bad as you think. And then, returning And then, returning And then, returning to self-awareness, to self-awareness, to self-awareness, John, once I, John, once I, John, once I, You know, it started back then. You know, it started back then. You know, it started back then. before I burned out, before I burned out, before I burned out, but I started walking but I started walking but I started walking consultations and consultations and consultations and thought: "Oh, I have thought: "Oh, I have thought: "Oh, I have there are some problems here" there are some problems here" . And, you know, we've arrived.

. And, you know, we've arrived. . And, you know, we've arrived. to something completely different to something completely different to something completely different stage in our marriage, stage in our marriage, stage in our marriage, for which I am very grateful. for which I am very grateful. But this confusion between But this confusion between public public public blessing, blessing, blessing, public service public service public service and personal and personal and personal dysfunction very dysfunction very dysfunction very I was confused. And with I was confused. And with I was confused. And with about this, John, about this, John, about this, John, I mean when I mean when I mean when you hear a story about you hear a story about you hear a story about public fall, uh, public fall, uh, public fall, uh, You know, you were in You know, you were in You know, you were in to the team where it was to the team where it was to the team where it was international news, international news, international news, national news, national news, national news, international news. AND international news. AND international news. AND I remember the phone number. I remember the phone number. I remember the phone number. the conversation we had with the conversation we had with the conversation we had with you. Whenever you. Whenever you. Whenever I pass by her, I I pass by her, I I pass by her, I I think about that one. I think about that one. I think about that one. telephone conversation. It telephone conversation. It telephone conversation. It was at the airport was at the airport was at the airport Pearson. And I called. Pearson. And I called. Pearson. And I called. you after the story in you after the story in you after the story in Willow-Brock and just Willow-Brock and just Willow-Brock and just said: John, what are we from said: John, what are we from said: John, what are we from Are we doing this? That's all. Are we doing this? That's all. Are we doing this? That's all. Was it a joke? But people Was it a joke? But people Was it a joke? But people were really were really were really salvation. And some of salvation. And some of salvation. And some of people who came to people who came to people who came to faith in that period faith in that period faith in that period our service when our service when our service when I was unwell, I was unwell, I was unwell, actually there is actually there is actually there is Christians still Christians still Christians still tuned in to Jesus. tuned in to Jesus. tuned in to Jesus. So I don't understand how So I don't understand how So I don't understand how it works. Now, this it works. Now, this it works. Now, this no excuse for no excuse for no excuse for me, so that me, so that me, so that to continue one's to continue one's to continue one's dysfunction or dysfunction or dysfunction or to continue to be to continue to be to continue to be bear at home. AND bear at home. AND bear at home. AND you know, smiley face you know, smiley face you know, smiley face stage. Um, yours, yours stage. Um, yours, yours stage. Um, yours, yours personal reality personal reality personal reality eventually catches up, I eventually catches up, I eventually catches up, I I think your public I think your public I think your public perception. But to me perception. But to me perception. But to me just wondering if there is just wondering if there is just wondering if there is other points of view on other points of view on other points of view on this kind of public- this kind of public- private private private divorce, which divorce, which divorce, which just over and over again just over and over again just over and over again appears in appears in appears in service?

service? service? Well, I remember one of Well, I remember one of Well, I remember one of things that Dallas things that Dallas things that Dallas Willard often said, Willard often said, Willard often said, this, um, pain is what this, um, pain is what this, um, pain is what you feel when you feel when you feel when want to face want to face want to face reality. And this reality. And this reality. And this a reminder that a reminder that a reminder that that reality exists that reality exists that reality exists somewhere nearby, and she's not somewhere nearby, and she's not somewhere nearby, and she's not bends, and we all bends, and we all bends, and we all we have all kinds of illusions we have all kinds of illusions we have all kinds of illusions around her. And sometimes I around her. And sometimes I around her. And sometimes I I think they are different. I think they are different. I think they are different. versions of our belief in versions of our belief in versions of our belief in to our tribe, uh, uh, to our tribe, uh, uh, to our tribe, uh, uh, in a certain way can in a certain way can in a certain way can actually lead actually lead actually lead to the fact that we, uh, to the fact that we, uh, to the fact that we, uh, harder to see harder to see harder to see reality, because reality, because reality, because we need God we need God we need God was clear, or was clear, or was clear, or so that life would be so that life would be so that life would be foreseeable, or foreseeable, or foreseeable, or so that the formula so that the formula so that the formula worked so that worked so that worked so that if to someone if to someone if to someone more is coming more is coming more is coming people to church, it people to church, it people to church, it automatically means, automatically means, automatically means, what do they get what do they get what do they get confirmation in confirmation in confirmation in every aspect every aspect every aspect of your life. Uh, so of your life. Uh, so of your life. Uh, so I think that certain I think that certain I think that certain kind of, uh, you know, kind of, uh, you know, kind of, uh, you know, one of the gifts that one of the gifts that one of the gifts that may come with pain, may come with pain, may come with pain, —it's simple —it's simple —it's simple clarification and clarification and clarification and awareness awareness awareness reality, because reality, because reality, because reality is everything, reality is everything, reality is everything, why do we live, why do we live, why do we live, but we don't always but we don't always but we don't always we are doing well with we are doing well with we are doing well with reality in the church. reality in the church. reality in the church. This episode is for you. This episode is for you. This episode is for you. represents Bley.

represents Bley. represents Bley. To lead a church is To lead a church is To lead a church is big big big responsibility, and responsibility, and responsibility, and when people give, they when people give, they when people give, they trust you wisely trust you wisely trust you wisely to dispose of to dispose of to dispose of their generosity. This their generosity. This their generosity. This trust is built. AND trust is built. AND trust is built. AND when your finances when your finances when your finances organized and organized and organized and strategic, and yours strategic, and yours strategic, and yours operations are underway operations are underway operations are underway smooth, your donors smooth, your donors smooth, your donors can give from can give from can give from with greater confidence, with greater confidence, with greater confidence, knowing that theirs knowing that theirs knowing that theirs generosity has generosity has generosity has value. But here value. But here value. But here truth. You are not truth. You are not truth. You are not accountant and not accountant and not accountant and not head of operations. head of operations. head of operations. Your energy should be Your energy should be Your energy should be to spend on, to to spend on, to to spend on, to What are you called to do? What are you called to do? What are you called to do? leadership. And this leadership. And this leadership. And this means that you have means that you have means that you have no time to devote no time to devote no time to devote behind the scenes work behind the scenes work behind the scenes work due attention. Exactly due attention. Exactly due attention. Exactly This is where Ble can help. This is where Ble can help. This is where Ble can help. Ble provides Ble provides Ble provides highly qualified highly qualified highly qualified specialists from the USA who specialists from the USA who specialists from the USA who can support can support can support your church as in your church as in your church as in financial, as well as in financial, as well as in financial, as well as in operational needs operational needs , giving you experience, , giving you experience, , giving you experience, which you can which you can which you can to trust, and to trust, and to trust, and ability ability ability to focus on to focus on to focus on service. And Ble provides service. And Ble provides service. And Ble provides free resource, free resource, free resource, which will help you which will help you which will help you understand how understand how understand how changes changes changes charity. It charity. It charity. It is called a change is called a change is called a change charity. He charity. He charity. He covers modern covers modern covers modern trends trends trends charity, charity, charity, donor behavior and donor behavior and donor behavior and how to adapt, how to adapt, how to adapt, so that you can do better so that you can do better so that you can do better communicate with communicate with communicate with people who want people who want people who want support your support your support your church. To get church. To get church. To get free free free loading, loading, loading, send my name, send my name, send my name, Kerry, at number 55123. This is Kerry, at number 55123. This is Kerry, at number 55123. This is KERRY at number 55123.

KERRY at number 55123. KERRY at number 55123. Give it to your Give it to your Give it to your gift to the church gift to the church gift to the church expert support expert support expert support with Bley. Uh, okay. with Bley. Uh, okay. with Bley. Uh, okay. Here is another question that Here is another question that Here is another question that I didn't plan to bet. I didn't plan to bet. , but I would like to , but I would like to , but I would like to to learn from you to learn from you to learn from you three, because you have reached three, because you have reached three, because you have reached significant success; significant success; significant success; Some publicly, and Some publicly, and Some publicly, and some, like you, are very some, like you, are very some, like you, are very successful: as a lawyer, successful: as a lawyer, successful: as a lawyer, as a pharmacist, now as a pharmacist, now as a pharmacist, now as an author, speaker, as an author, speaker, as an author, speaker, podcaster. I don't know. podcaster. I don't know. podcaster. I don't know. Your biography Your biography Your biography It's over, Tony. It's over, Tony. It's over, Tony. but you do a lot but you do a lot but you do a lot things and sold things and sold things and sold millions of books, John. millions of books, John. millions of books, John. You sold millions You sold millions You sold millions books and led books and led books and led a few very a few very a few very influential churches. What influential churches. What influential churches. What you think about success, you think about success, you think about success, about hedonistic about hedonistic about hedonistic treadmill? I have treadmill? I have treadmill? I have meaning that meaning that meaning that most studies most studies seems to indicate seems to indicate seems to indicate about the desire about the desire become an author become an author New York Times bestsellers New York Times bestsellers New York Times bestsellers there is often more there is often more there is often more satisfactory than to be satisfactory than to be satisfactory than to be him. Um, research him. Um, research him. Um, research show that the attempt show that the attempt show that the attempt to win the Olympic to win the Olympic to win the Olympic The medal is more The medal is more The medal is more more exciting than hers more exciting than hers more exciting than hers actual possession. actual possession. actual possession. The same applies to The same applies to The same applies to championship championship championship Super Bowl. This is what, Super Bowl. This is what, Super Bowl. This is what, seems to suggest seems to suggest seems to suggest psychology. Arthur psychology. Arthur psychology. Arthur Brooks talked about it.

Brooks talked about it. Brooks talked about it. But what are your thoughts? But what are your thoughts? But what are your thoughts? about success? Because in about success? Because in about success? Because in there are many of us here there are many of us here there are many of us here young leaders who young leaders who young leaders who listen to those who say: listen to those who say: listen to those who say: "I want to sell "I want to sell "I want to sell many books. I want many books. I want many books. I want to be successful. I want to be successful. I want to be successful. I want have 30% of the annual have 30% of the annual have 30% of the annual growth, complex growth, complex growth, complex growth, blah-blah- growth, blah-blah- "blah." "blah." "blah." What are your thoughts on What are your thoughts on What are your thoughts on success at this stage success at this stage success at this stage life, success? And I say life, success? And I say life, success? And I say it's in quotes. it's in quotes. it's in quotes. Yes. Yes. What would you say? I really hope that I really hope that John Artberg will bring John Artberg will bring John Artberg will bring great wisdom in this great wisdom in this great wisdom in this question. Hmm, I think so. question. Hmm, I think so. question. Hmm, I think so. what it consists of what it consists of what it consists of determining what determining what determining what such a success. And, perhaps such a success. And, perhaps , 35-year-old Ann would have , 35-year-old Ann would have , 35-year-old Ann would have a different answer than 50- a different answer than 50- Year-old Ann. I think that Year-old Ann. I think that Year-old Ann. I think that success in the end success in the end success in the end is that I is that I is that I I choose to believe in Him. I choose to believe in Him. I choose to believe in Him. The coming kingdom The coming kingdom The coming kingdom which is inverted which is inverted which is inverted The Kingdom of God, which The Kingdom of God, which The Kingdom of God, which believes in a downward spiral believes in a downward spiral believes in a downward spiral mobility. How is this?

mobility. How is this? mobility. How is this? looks like when I looks like when I looks like when I I go down to I go down to I go down to the smallest, the lonely and the smallest, the lonely and the smallest, the lonely and lost? Because, I lost? Because, I lost? Because, I I think it's ascending. I think it's ascending. I think it's ascending. mobility is mobility is mobility is in my growth, and in my growth, and in my growth, and we know that this we know that this we know that this leads to leads to leads to emptiness. It emptiness. It emptiness. It leads to leads to leads to dysfunction and dysfunction and dysfunction and all kinds of family all kinds of family all kinds of family quarrels, which I think are quarrels, which I think are quarrels, which I think are rotten fruit, rotten fruit, rotten fruit, whose bitterness you whose bitterness you whose bitterness you taste. So, I taste. So, I taste. So, I think hmm i think i think hmm i think i think hmm i think i I think so indeed. I think so indeed. I think so indeed. it is important to be it is important to be it is important to be enthusiastic enthusiastic God's calling in God's calling in your life and be your life and be your life and be sincerely devoted to this sincerely devoted to this sincerely devoted to this process, and at the same time process, and at the same time process, and at the same time to be the same to be the same to be the same deeply devoted, hmm, deeply devoted, hmm, deeply devoted, hmm, generous with the result, generous with the result, generous with the result, that, um, I don't want that, um, I don't want that, um, I don't want to stand in front of to stand in front of to stand in front of By the Lord and say, By the Lord and say, By the Lord and say, that worked for everyone that worked for everyone that worked for everyone heart, as before heart, as before heart, as before By the Lord. But By the Lord. But By the Lord. But result i want result i want result i want to be completely generous to be completely generous to be completely generous and devoted. God and devoted. God and devoted. God does everything that God does does everything that God does does everything that God does wants to do. And I wants to do. And I wants to do. And I I think, you know, I I think, you know, I I think, you know, I just talking about just talking about just talking about this is when we first this is when we first this is when we first met here, in met here, in met here, in Colorado, and, um, me Colorado, and, um, me Colorado, and, um, me just got back from 12 just got back from 12 just got back from 12 days of service in Kenya, and days of service in Kenya, and , hmm, back , hmm, back , hmm, back home and home and home and talking to talking to talking to husband about, you know husband about, you know , I was really , I was really , I was really shocked by reality " shocked by reality " the first ones will be the first ones will be the first ones will be the last, and the last the last, and the last the last, and the last first", and how is that

first", and how is that first", and how is that actually actually actually will look like, because, will look like, because, will look like, because, hmm, our western hmm, our western hmm, our western the idea of ​​success and, the idea of ​​success and, the idea of ​​success and, hmm, achievements and, hmm, hmm, achievements and, hmm, hmm, achievements and, hmm, obtaining so many obtaining so many obtaining so many the goods of this world. As the goods of this world. As the goods of this world. As this is what it looks like when this is what it looks like when this is what it looks like when You are sitting in a small You are sitting in a small You are sitting in a small huts made of sticks, hmm, with huts made of sticks, hmm, with huts made of sticks, hmm, with nomadic people on nomadic people on nomadic people on northern Kenya, which northern Kenya, which northern Kenya, which value God's word as value God's word as value God's word as your greatest love? your greatest love? And we read, And we read, we examine the Bible, we examine the Bible, we examine the Bible, which are completely which are completely which are completely fall apart because they fall apart because they fall apart because they carried them with them carried them with them carried them with them everywhere and absorbed. AND everywhere and absorbed. AND everywhere and absorbed. AND yet I have a screen and yet I have a screen and yet I have a screen and so many other words so many other words that I can read, and that I can read, and that I can read, and literally literally literally translate from translate from translate from some of these people, and some of these people, and some of these people, and they constantly say: they constantly say: they constantly say: "Well, when is the treasure, when "Well, when is the treasure, when "Well, when is the treasure, when treasure when we treasure when we treasure when we "we got the treasure." And I "we got the treasure." And I "we got the treasure." And I stopped the translator stopped the translator stopped the translator and said, "I don't and said, "I don't and said, "I don't I understand what it is. I understand what it is. I understand what it is. treasure". And they treasure". And they treasure". And they said: "Oh, sorry, said: "Oh, sorry, said: "Oh, sorry, this is what we call this is what we call this is what we call The Bible. We call The Bible. We call The Bible. We call her treasure." And I her treasure." And I her treasure." And I thought: "Oh, what thought: "Oh, what thought: "Oh, what I keep treasures on I keep treasures on I keep treasures on heaven? What do I think?

heaven? What do I think? heaven? What do I think? treasure, and how I treasure, and how I treasure, and how I I try not to I try not to I try not to to lag behind to lag behind to lag behind Jones or Jones or Jones or support support support company with Jesus? company with Jesus? company with Jesus? So, I think I have So, I think I have So, I think I have just happens just happens just happens complete change complete change complete change paradigms regarding paradigms regarding paradigms regarding What is success when I What is success when I What is success when I I stand before Jesus. I stand before Jesus. Tony, you, um, had Tony, you, um, had several careers, that's right several careers, that's right several careers, that's right funny. I have on funny. I have on funny. I have on I mean, we're married. I mean, we're married. I mean, we're married. so long, and when I so long, and when I so long, and when I I present Tony, I I present Tony, I I present Tony, I I say: "Yes, she is a lawyer." I say: "Yes, she is a lawyer." I say: "Yes, she is a lawyer." and a pharmacist." All and a pharmacist." All and a pharmacist." All stop at this stop at this stop at this stage and say: " stage and say: " Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, What?" What?" What?" Right? And it's like... Right? And it's like... and here we can and here we can and here we can to get into trouble to get into trouble to get into trouble territory, so I territory, so I territory, so I I want to be careful, I want to be careful, I want to be careful, but it's like you always but it's like you always but it's like you always just passing by just passing by just passing by this is where you always end up this is where you always end up this is where you always end up on the next thing, on the next thing, on the next thing, for example, whatever it is for example, whatever it is for example, whatever it is was. So what do you think? was. So what do you think? was. So what do you think? about how the world about how the world about how the world defines, quote, defines, quote, defines, quote, success at the moment success at the moment ? I think I was ? I think I was ? I think I was quite confused quite confused quite confused regarding success a few regarding success a few regarding success a few decades ago, and in decades ago, and in decades ago, and in I had this one.

I had this one. I had this one. winding career winding career winding career the path where, however, I the path where, however, I the path where, however, I always oriented always oriented always oriented on what it will be like on what it will be like on what it will be like next step, and, um, next step, and, um, next step, and, um, and that's why I think it's and that's why I think it's and that's why I think it's it was enough it was enough it was enough restless. I believe that restless. I believe that restless. I believe that God used it. I God used it. I God used it. I always prayed wholeheartedly always prayed wholeheartedly always prayed wholeheartedly this time: "God, show me this time: "God, show me this time: "God, show me me, how are you me, how are you me, how are you use me in use me in use me in this season." And therefore this season." And therefore this season." And therefore I, you know, how much I I, you know, how much I I, you know, how much I could at that time, I could at that time, I could at that time, I tried to occupy tried to occupy tried to occupy position of surrender. position of surrender. Hmm, but it seems... Hmm, but it seems... until recently, I would say, until recently, I would say, until recently, I would say, during the last during the last during the last four years, in four years, in four years, in I was still there. I was still there. I was still there. unhealthy unhealthy unhealthy attachment to attachment to attachment to something between something between something between achievement and my achievement and my achievement and my identity. And in identity. And in identity. And in I was peculiar. I was peculiar. I was peculiar. the crisis that followed, the crisis that followed, the crisis that followed, uh, when I realized, uh, when I realized, uh, when I realized, what do I need what do I need what do I need completely and ruthlessly completely and ruthlessly completely and ruthlessly break this break this break this association. Uh, and association. Uh, and association. Uh, and at the moment I at the moment I at the moment I I'll try it again.

I'll try it again. Do you know if I am completely Do you know if I am completely Did you break it? Uh, this is Did you break it? Uh, this is Did you break it? Uh, this is my intention. This is what I my intention. This is what I my intention. This is what I I want to do it. Uh, but I want to do it. Uh, but I want to do it. Uh, but I want to reach a point, I want to reach a point, I want to reach a point, When what would God do? When what would God do? When what would God do? I was not called, I I was not called, I I was not called, I I can keep this up. I can keep this up. I can keep this up. with open arms and with open arms and with open arms and to pray that God, to pray that God, to pray that God, Please, Please, Please, used it as if used it as if used it as if you wanted, no matter what you wanted, no matter what you wanted, no matter what decided. Uh, I still decided. Uh, I still decided. Uh, I still I want to give myself to this. I want to give myself to this. I want to give myself to this. with all my heart and with all my heart and with all my heart and to devote all one's to devote all one's to devote all one's energy. You know, I energy. You know, I energy. You know, I I pray that I I pray that I I pray that I worked with energy worked with energy worked with energy Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit, doing these doing these doing these tasks to which, as tasks to which, as tasks to which, as I feel, He me I feel, He me I feel, He me called. Hmm, but called. Hmm, but called. Hmm, but at the same time I am very at the same time I am very at the same time I am very I consciously relate to I consciously relate to I consciously relate to time spent time spent time spent Alone with God, where I am Alone with God, where I am Alone with God, where I am simply a child of God. simply a child of God. There is nothing more. And if everything else is mine And if everything else is mine they will take it away, I will they will take it away, I will they will take it away, I will good, because Jesus good, because Jesus good, because Jesus really enough. I really enough. I really enough. I I'm still saying this from a point of view I'm still saying this from a point of view I'm still saying this from a point of view vision of aspiration, but I vision of aspiration, but I vision of aspiration, but I I think it's more I think it's more I think it's more true now than true now than true now than it was several years ago it was several years ago it was several years ago ago. John, for you, ago. John, for you, ago. John, for you, you know when you think you know when you think you know when you think about the definition about the definition about the definition success, why or how success, why or how success, why or how it has changed or it has changed or it has changed or it became for you it became for you it became for you empty compared to empty compared to empty compared to what happened before?

what happened before? what happened before? Well, I mean that Well, I mean that Well, I mean that I'm just deep. I'm just deep. I'm just deep. resonate with Tony and resonate with Tony and resonate with Tony and anagram three, right? anagram three, right? anagram three, right? That's right. I am an anagram That's right. I am an anagram That's right. I am an anagram three. So, I would say, three. So, I would say, three. So, I would say, considering my considering my considering my nature, I think that in nature, I think that in nature, I think that in Each of us has battles, Each of us has battles, Each of us has battles, what will we be what will we be what will we be fight to the death. fight to the death. fight to the death. This is a battle I will fight. This is a battle I will fight. This is a battle I will fight. fight to the death. AND fight to the death. AND fight to the death. AND so I hope I so I hope I so I hope I advanced further than advanced further than advanced further than once, but Tony, I'm with once, but Tony, I'm with once, but Tony, I'm with I agree with you on this. I agree with you on this. I agree with you on this. meaning that I don't know meaning that I don't know meaning that I don't know definitely. This is something on definitely. This is something on definitely. This is something on like how, Peter like how, Peter , you know, oh Lord, all , you know, oh Lord, all , you know, oh Lord, all others can run away others can run away others can run away from you, but I never from you, but I never from you, but I never do not deserve do not deserve do not deserve tears. Well, as if you tears. Well, as if you tears. Well, as if you you don't really know, you don't really know, you don't really know, until you find yourself in until you find yourself in until you find yourself in such a situation. such a situation. such a situation. So, uh, you know, a little bit So, uh, you know, a little bit So, uh, you know, a little bit humility and humility and humility and uncertainty, uncertainty, uncertainty, Probably good. Um, I Probably good. Um, I Probably good. Um, I I think that's an advantage. I think that's an advantage. I think that's an advantage. my nature is my nature is my nature is in that we were in that we were in that we were created in the image created in the image created in the image God, so that God, so that God, so that to exercise power. to exercise power. to exercise power. So, to want So, to want So, to want to learn, to achieve, to learn, to achieve, to learn, to achieve, to create, to create to create, to create to create, to create and act, we are created and act, we are created and act, we are created for this. We all, for this. We all, for this. We all, you know, there is a part you know, there is a part you know, there is a part this, which is not this, which is not this, which is not driven by ego. It driven by ego. It driven by ego. It just, uh, to be just, uh, to be just, uh, to be the bearer of the image. And therefore the bearer of the image. And therefore the bearer of the image. And therefore we are created to be we are created to be we are created to be significant, not significant, not significant, not just to be one more just to be one more just to be one more of them. Um, but, uh, of them. Um, but, uh, of them. Um, but, uh, when I get attached to when I get attached to when I get attached to result, you know, result, you know, result, you know, so, uh, the result so, uh, the result so, uh, the result becomes fuel, and mine becomes fuel, and mine becomes fuel, and mine the value depends the value depends the value depends from how much from how much from how much people came to people came to people came to churches, or how many churches, or how many churches, or how many people liked this people liked this people liked this sermon, or sermon, or sermon, or listened to this book, listened to this book, listened to this book, or what else, you know, or what else, you know, or what else, you know, That's the problem.

That's the problem. We all, I think, we all We all, I think, we all we know, that is, not we know, that is, not we know, that is, not need to be need to be need to be a Christian, to a Christian, to a Christian, to know this. We know this. We know this. We let's talk about the world; let's talk about the world; let's talk about the world; everyone in the world, whatever everyone in the world, whatever everyone in the world, whatever he was not there, knows about he was not there, knows about he was not there, knows about money, power, beauty, money, power, beauty, money, power, beauty, success. I mean, success. I mean, success. I mean, movies, books–all of it movies, books–all of it movies, books–all of it not about that. Complexity not about that. Complexity not about that. Complexity in that they all in that they all in that they all cause a small cause a small cause a small a surge of dopamine. AND a surge of dopamine. AND a surge of dopamine. AND so we all so we all so we all Let's say abstractly: " Let's say abstractly: " "Oh no, that's not true." But "Oh no, that's not true." But "Oh no, that's not true." But then, God, if I then, God, if I then, God, if I received tomorrow received tomorrow received tomorrow a huge pile a huge pile a huge pile money, would I be money, would I be money, would I be a little excited a little excited a little excited hereby? Would it be promoted? hereby? Would it be promoted? hereby? Would it be promoted? dopamine levels? Well, dopamine levels? Well, dopamine levels? Well, of course, that of course, that of course, that would have risen. So would have risen. So would have risen. So the difficulty lies in the difficulty lies in the difficulty lies in the struggle between the struggle between the struggle between immediate surge immediate surge immediate surge dopamine, which I know dopamine, which I know , will be, and , will be, and , will be, and awareness: "Yes, awareness: "Yes, awareness: "Yes, but if I got but if I got but if I got so much money, this so much money, this so much money, this dopamine rush dopamine rush dopamine rush would eventually disappear." would eventually disappear." I know this abstractly, I know this abstractly, but another part of me but another part of me but another part of me The body doesn't know this and The body doesn't know this and The body doesn't know this and thinks: "Oh, if only I thinks: "Oh, if only I thinks: "Oh, if only I got this, this got this, this got this, this would last." So, would last." So, would last." So, well, I think not well, I think not well, I think not is it worth doing this is it worth doing this is it worth doing this metatopic, but I metatopic, but I metatopic, but I I think that's it. I think that's it. I think that's it. concerns concerns concerns self-awareness, right? self-awareness, right? self-awareness, right? Yes? What was it that moved? Yes? What was it that moved? Yes? What was it that moved? us, 35-year-old Ann, 25- us, 35-year-old Ann, 25- year-old Tony or me, year-old Tony or me, year-old Tony or me, when I was younger, when I was younger, when I was younger, we didn't know what exactly we didn't know what exactly we didn't know what exactly This fascinates us. But, This fascinates us. But, This fascinates us. But, you know, we had you know, we had you know, we had privilege here, in privilege here, in privilege here, in podcasts, take podcasts, take podcasts, take interviews with hundreds and interviews with hundreds and interviews with hundreds and hundreds hundreds hundreds highly qualified highly qualified highly qualified leaders. And it's almost like leaders. And it's almost like occupational disease occupational disease or the curse with which or the curse with which or the curse with which some are struggling with some are struggling with some are struggling with the most successful and the most successful and the most successful and the most accessible people, the most accessible people, the most accessible people, which you can only which you can only which you can only imagine, but imagine, but imagine, but this is not enough. Or this is not enough. Or this is not enough. Or any idea where this comes from

any idea where this comes from any idea where this comes from is it taken? Because you can is it taken? Because you can is it taken? Because you can to think that if you to think that if you to think that if you independently independently independently looked at life looked at life looked at life many of these people many of these people , just take a look , just take a look , just take a look this podcast directly this podcast directly this podcast directly now, look at now, look at now, look at Anne's life, life Anne's life, life Anne's life, life John, Tony's life, John, Tony's life, John, Tony's life, what they achieved, what they achieved, what they achieved, or turn over or turn over or turn over previous episodes. AND previous episodes. AND previous episodes. AND not all, but the majority not all, but the majority not all, but the majority most people most people most people they say: "Yes, we all they say: "Yes, we all they say: "Yes, we all "We're chasing something." "We're chasing something." And, I hope, this And, I hope, this change changes from change changes from change changes from age and age and age and growing up. But growing up. But growing up. But I wonder what this is. I wonder what this is. I wonder what this is. leadership epidemic, leadership epidemic, leadership epidemic, because many of us, because many of us, because many of us, many of us, many of us, many of us, falls into that falls into that falls into that moment in leadership, moment in leadership, moment in leadership, when, I think, Gordon when, I think, Gordon when, I think, Gordon McDonald calls McDonald calls McDonald calls it's, uh, controllable, but it's, uh, controllable, but it's, uh, controllable, but not called. AND not called. AND not called. AND you know, this is a desire you know, this is a desire you know, this is a desire to achievements, but without to achievements, but without to achievements, but without this desire...that this desire...that this desire...that Are you doing? I just Are you doing? I just Are you doing? I just finished reading finished reading finished reading Second message to Second message to Second message to Corinthians, and Paul, according to Corinthians, and Paul, according to Corinthians, and Paul, according to In essence, he apologizes, but In essence, he apologizes, but In essence, he apologizes, but then says: "But also then says: "But also then says: "But also I am all this...". You see, this I am all this...". You see, this I am all this...". You see, this very, very interesting very, very interesting very, very interesting book. Paul would be book. Paul would be book. Paul would be an exciting guy an exciting guy an exciting guy for a meeting, but I for a meeting, but I for a meeting, but I I think he was I think he was I think he was too ambitious to too ambitious to too ambitious to to destroy the church, and to destroy the church, and to destroy the church, and then the same ambitions then the same ambitions are transformed into are transformed into building the kingdom. Or building the kingdom. Or building the kingdom. Or Are there any other thoughts from Are there any other thoughts from Are there any other thoughts from on this occasion, only on this occasion, only on this occasion, only for leaders who, for leaders who, for leaders who, maybe not yet maybe not yet maybe not yet reached a point where reached a point where reached a point where they had time they had time they had time to think about it, to think about it, to think about it, What drives them? I think What drives them? I think that the verbs that you that the verbs that you that the verbs that you use, such, use, such, use, such, hmm, revolutionary in hmm, revolutionary in hmm, revolutionary in in many ways

in many ways , Kerry. Motivated. Or , Kerry. Motivated. Or , Kerry. Motivated. Or I am motivated. I am motivated. I am motivated. to grab onto something, or to grab onto something, or to grab onto something, or I am motivated by the fact that I am motivated by the fact that I am motivated by the fact that I'm afraid of something, and I don't I'm afraid of something, and I don't I'm afraid of something, and I don't I'm so chasing something, I'm so chasing something, I'm so chasing something, how I feel about me how I feel about me how I feel about me pursues something, from pursues something, from pursues something, from what am I trying to do what am I trying to do what am I trying to do to escape. Um, and I think to escape. Um, and I think to escape. Um, and I think what do you do right away what do you do right away what do you do right away said, Carrie, about said, Carrie, about said, Carrie, about age of attachment, and age of attachment, and age of attachment, and listening to John listening to John listening to John speaks about speaks about speaks about attachment to attachment to attachment to result, and Tony result, and Tony result, and Tony about attachment to about attachment to about attachment to achievements. I think, or achievements. I think, or achievements. I think, or can we do enough can we do enough can we do enough slow down and slow down and slow down and find space in find space in find space in our life for our life for our life for analysis and reflection analysis and reflection analysis and reflection over whether over whether over whether I am attached to I am attached to I am attached to result? Or result? Or result? Or I am attached to I am attached to I am attached to achievements? Am I alive? achievements? Am I alive? achievements? Am I alive? so that it is tied to so that it is tied to so that it is tied to Christ himself? And what Christ himself? And what Christ himself? And what I need I need I need to change in your to change in your to change in your life, to life, to life, to reorient it reorient it reorient it so that it is not so that it is not so that it is not in Cortissonne, where I in Cortissonne, where I in Cortissonne, where I I turn inward, I turn inward, I turn inward, and I don't want anything and I don't want anything and I don't want anything there, so that I can really there, so that I can really there, so that I can really lived in a cruciform lived in a cruciform lived in a cruciform pose as a believer, as pose as a believer, as pose as a believer, as leader, so that I would like leader, so that I would like leader, so that I would like to accept intimacy to accept intimacy to accept intimacy with Christ himself, so that with Christ himself, so that with Christ himself, so that I was really I was really I was really attached to it?

attached to it? But this means change But this means change paradigms: is success paradigms: is success paradigms: is success consists of consists of consists of achievements, or success achievements, or success achievements, or success lies in the proximity lies in the proximity lies in the proximity my attachment to my attachment to my attachment to Jesus himself? Jesus himself? Yes. Yes. Tony, what do you think? Tony, what do you think? Tony, what do you think? What moved you? What moved you? Oh, in my early years, uh- Well, I can say that Well, I can say that Well, I can say that it was fear. It was it was fear. It was it was fear. It was rather a desire, hmm, rather a desire, hmm, rather a desire, hmm, to work, to prove to work, to prove to work, to prove its value, its value, its value, to prove one's point to prove one's point to prove one's point value. I think that value. I think that value. I think that at the moment it is at the moment it is at the moment it is quite obvious. quite obvious. quite obvious. I think you always I think you always I think you always I felt that you I felt that you I felt that you not enough. not enough. not enough. Yes. Yes. And this was it. Yes. Yes. And this was it. Yes. Yes. And this was it. later fight against later fight against later fight against toxic shame, toxic shame, toxic shame, which I had to which I had to which I had to lead. I mean, lead. I mean, lead. I mean, that I don't think that's it that I don't think that's it that I don't think that's it It's already a mystery. But when It's already a mystery. But when It's already a mystery. But when you use you use you use the word "aspiring", I the word "aspiring", I the word "aspiring", I I can see it in two. I can see it in two. I can see it in two. different meanings. different meanings. different meanings. You know, what I'm under You know, what I'm under You know, what I'm under lived for years, being lived for years, being lived for years, being driven by fear, driven by fear, driven by fear, the need to work, the need to work, the need to work, or, I think, there is some or, I think, there is some or, I think, there is some holy feeling holy feeling holy feeling desire. I don't think so.

desire. I don't think so. desire. I don't think so. that "aspiring" is precisely for that "aspiring" is precisely for that "aspiring" is precisely for I have, um, you know, I have, um, you know, I have, um, you know, a bad word or a bad word or a bad word or in a word, which in a word, which in a word, which contradicts life with contradicts life with contradicts life with by faith. I think that by faith. I think that by faith. I think that you too can you too can you too can to be guided by faith. Uh, to be guided by faith. Uh, to be guided by faith. Uh, you know, maybe you know, maybe you know, maybe holy aspiration, as- holy aspiration, as- That's what God is for. That's what God is for. That's what God is for. called me. I can called me. I can called me. I can do it together with do it together with do it together with Christ. How would we Christ. How would we Christ. How would we could be in this could be in this could be in this traveling together, hmm, and traveling together, hmm, and traveling together, hmm, and not to be tied down not to be tied down not to be tied down to the results, but to the results, but to the results, but still work with still work with still work with with this, with this with this, with this with this, with this real energy. real energy. I don't know what's going on. I don't know what's going on. I think so. I think so. I think so. This is really beautiful. This is really beautiful. This is really beautiful. opinion. This is really opinion. This is really opinion. This is really good idea. Tony good idea. Tony good idea. Tony John, what else about John, what else about John, what else about purposefulness, purposefulness, purposefulness, achievements and how achievements and how achievements and how this changes in this changes in this changes in your life? You know, your life? You know, your life? You know, another dynamic that I another dynamic that I another dynamic that I I'm thinking about Carrie, that's it. I'm thinking about Carrie, that's it. that she brings us back that she brings us back that she brings us back to the previous one to the previous one to the previous one question about pain. question about pain. And, uh, I think that in And, uh, I think that in times really times really times really very deep pain very deep pain very deep pain it is useful to think: "This it is useful to think: "This it is useful to think: "This not interrupting my not interrupting my not interrupting my calling; it calling; it calling; it part of me part of me part of me calling. I calling. I calling. I called to this called to this called to this now". And, of course, and, now". And, of course, and, now". And, of course, and, when you talk about when you talk about when you talk about crucified life, crucified life, crucified life, It is amazing what Jesus had It is amazing what Jesus had It is amazing what Jesus had your main contribution your main contribution your main contribution not because he not because he not because he did, although he was did, although he was did, although he was quite active quite active quite active for a long time for a long time for a long time parts of your life, parts of your life, parts of your life, and from the fact that and from the fact that and from the fact that the most important part the most important part the most important part his life is what his life is what his life is what he suffered when he suffered when he suffered when did nothing. And, uh did nothing. And, uh , it was a strange gift , it was a strange gift , it was a strange gift for me, when I for me, when I for me, when I had to leave had to leave had to leave church and I didn't know if church and I didn't know if church and I didn't know if I will be back someday.

I will be back someday. I will be back someday. to serve, quote ( to serve, quote ( end of quote). It was end of quote). It was end of quote). It was a lot of pain in others a lot of pain in others a lot of pain in others areas, but one of areas, but one of areas, but one of things I discovered, things I discovered, things I discovered, this is what is mine this is what is mine this is what is mine everyday life, eh- everyday life, eh- Well, I was able to. Well, I was able to. Well, I was able to. enjoy it. enjoy it. enjoy it. I didn't feel, "Oh, I didn't feel, "Oh, I didn't feel, "Oh, Who am I now? I am this. Who am I now? I am this. Who am I now? I am this. lost. So it was lost. So it was lost. So it was It's quite obvious that, uh It's quite obvious that, uh -well, in a sense, -well, in a sense, -well, in a sense, task and scale task and scale task and scale don't have a big don't have a big don't have a big value. And now I value. And now I value. And now I I think about it a lot, I think about it a lot, I think about it a lot, because it is because it is because it is relates to aging. relates to aging. THERE ARE- uh, my job uh, my job will turn 70 years old will turn 70 years old will turn 70 years old next May, and, next May, and, next May, and, uh, I'm reading " uh, I'm reading " Crazy for the sake of Crazy for the sake of Crazy for the sake of "Ronald's Light" "Ronald's Light" "Ronald's Light" Rolheiser. It Rolheiser. It Rolheiser. It my book, my book, my book, which is a pearl. I which is a pearl. I which is a pearl. I I was just thinking about this. I was just thinking about this. I was just thinking about this. a book when you a book when you a book when you I was talking, John. Be I was talking, John. Be I was talking, John. Be Please continue. He Please continue. He Please continue. He says that, uh- says that, uh- oh, huge mistake oh, huge mistake oh, huge mistake to think about, uh, to think about, uh, to think about, uh, aging as a aging as a aging as a a sign of death, not a sign of death, not a sign of death, not about the invitation to about the invitation to about the invitation to a new kind of life. AND a new kind of life. AND a new kind of life. AND he says that every he says that every he says that every physical reduction, this physical reduction, this physical reduction, this quote, uh, from that, quote, uh, from that, quote, uh, from that, why should we why should we why should we to get up at night to to get up at night to to get up at night to to go to the toilet, to to go to the toilet, to to go to the toilet, to why our skin why our skin why our skin sags and becomes dry sags and becomes dry , intended for , intended for , intended for maturation of the soul. AND maturation of the soul. AND maturation of the soul. AND each of them performs each of them performs each of them performs their work without ours their work without ours their work without ours consent. Relentlessly and consent. Relentlessly and consent. Relentlessly and ruthless process ruthless process ruthless process aging eventually aging eventually aging eventually transforms us all transforms us all transforms us all on the monks. And this is the plan. AND on the monks. And this is the plan. AND on the monks. And this is the plan. AND God is involved in this God is involved in this God is involved in this conspiracies. Unless conspiracies. Unless conspiracies. Unless Isn't that great? Yes. Yes.

Isn't that great? Yes. Yes. Isn't that great? Yes. Yes. So it's something like So it's something like a gift, painful a gift, painful an unwanted gift from an unwanted gift from an unwanted gift from God, which consists in God, which consists in God, which consists in because if you because if you because if you live enough live enough live enough long, then, uh, long, then, uh, long, then, uh, aging and what aging and what aging and what it does it externally, it does it externally, it does it externally, are wasting away, are wasting away, and instead of and instead of to fight him, to fight him, to fight him, to resist, to pretend, to resist, to pretend, to resist, to pretend, deny it, eh- deny it, eh- eh, accept it and eh, accept it and eh, accept it and find life in it find life in it find life in it as an invitation, as an invitation, as an invitation, and most importantly and most importantly and most importantly Jesus' achievements Jesus' achievements Jesus' achievements was performed in his was performed in his was performed in his passivity, not in passivity, not in passivity, not in his activities. What his activities. What his activities. What there is a passive form there is a passive form there is a passive form life, which life, which life, which is outside is outside is outside under your control. under your control. And the great work of Jesus And the great work of Jesus comes through him comes through him comes through him suffering. Uh, ours suffering. Uh, ours suffering. Uh, ours My younger daughter and I My younger daughter and I My younger daughter and I we repeat every night we repeat every night we repeat every night apostolic symbol apostolic symbol apostolic symbol faith. And I always faith. And I always faith. And I always I'm getting to this. On I'm getting to this. On I'm getting to this. On the third day he the third day he the third day he resurrected, uh, no, resurrected, uh, no, resurrected, uh, no, sorry, he sorry, he sorry, he born of a Virgin born of a Virgin born of a Virgin Mary, and then what Mary, and then what Mary, and then what it doesn't say, he it doesn't say, he it doesn't say, he achieved success for achieved success for achieved success for Pontius Pilate. As if Pontius Pilate. As if Pontius Pilate. As if the whole essence of his life the whole essence of his life the whole essence of his life is only that, is only that, is only that, What, What, What, maybe we should do this maybe we should do this maybe we should do this to change, or to change, or to change, or wrong? Me always wrong? Me always wrong? Me always It's amazing that there's only one It's amazing that there's only one It's amazing that there's only one a word that describes something a word that describes something a word that describes something what did Jesus do while what did Jesus do while what did Jesus do while was alive.

was alive. was alive. Suffered for Suffered for Suffered for Pontius Pilot. Pontius Pilot. Pontius Pilot. He suffered, and I He suffered, and I He suffered, and I I always pause, I always pause, I always pause, because I think it should be because I think it should be because I think it should be comma, and then under comma, and then under comma, and then under Pontius Pilot Pontius Pilot Pontius Pilot was crucified, died, was crucified, died, was crucified, died, because, they say, he because, they say, he because, they say, he suffered, they say, suffered, they say, suffered, they say, just stopping at just stopping at just stopping at this, what does this describe this, what does this describe this, what does this describe the life of Jesus. And if the life of Jesus. And if the life of Jesus. And if he is the one who was without he is the one who was without he is the one who was without sin, almighty, sin, almighty, sin, almighty, omniscient as he is omniscient as he is omniscient as he is determines success? As if determines success? As if determines success? As if he didn't succeed, but he didn't succeed, but he didn't succeed, but he was suffering. What is it he was suffering. What is it he was suffering. What is it means for our means for our means for our Your own pain, John? Your own pain, John? Your own pain, John? And what does it look like when And what does it look like when And what does it look like when you live crucified you live crucified you live crucified life? I sincerely believe, life? I sincerely believe, life? I sincerely believe, that the only thing that exists that the only thing that exists that the only thing that exists transformational, it is transformational, it is transformational, it is that which is crucified, and that which is crucified, and that which is crucified, and Jesus himself embodied this. Jesus himself embodied this. Yes. The reason why I Yes. The reason why I thinking about work thinking about work thinking about work Royal Heizer, while Royal Heizer, while Royal Heizer, while you spoke to John, you spoke to John, you spoke to John, consists in the concept consists in the concept consists in the concept generative generative generative passivity, which passivity, which passivity, which is that he is that he is that he was actually in was actually in was actually in in the process of creation in the process of creation in the process of creation more life more life for humanity, being for humanity, being passive, and for me passive, and for me passive, and for me this means, under which this means, under which this means, under which circumstances to me circumstances to me circumstances to me really need really need really need to take the same to take the same to take the same position to have that position to have that position to have that the influence he wants the influence he wants the influence he wants God. This was for me.

God. This was for me. God. This was for me. important issue in important issue in important issue in in the context of our in the context of our in the context of our relationships, when sometimes relationships, when sometimes relationships, when sometimes the best I can the best I can the best I can to do, not to be to do, not to be to do, not to be protective. Uh, you know, protective. Uh, you know, protective. Uh, you know, don't try don't try don't try come up with a clever one come up with a clever one come up with a clever one respond. Right now respond. Right now respond. Right now time to be passive. time to be passive. time to be passive. I like it, I like it, I like it, Where is this going? This is very Where is this going? This is very Where is this going? This is very good. Very good. Very good. Very encouraging. encouraging. encouraging. Oh no. Oh no. Oh no. Thank you. Our hour Thank you. Our hour Thank you. Our hour out, John and Anne? out, John and Anne? out, John and Anne? Uh, it was really Uh, it was really Uh, it was really good session. Be good session. Be good session. Be monster. Yes. Aha. monster. Yes. Aha. monster. Yes. Aha. I also need I also need I also need a lot of things a lot of things a lot of things develop. One of develop. One of develop. One of things that I things that I things that I like in like in like in the project you the project you the project you created together with Honest created together with Honest created together with Honest to God, Tony, this is what it is to God, Tony, this is what it is to God, Tony, this is what it is collection of writers. collection of writers. collection of writers. How many are there? 23 25? How many are there? 23 25? How many are there? 23 25? There are 25 of us together. There are 25 of us together. There are 25 of us together. Yes. 25. Yes. 25. Yes. 25. And many people, when And many people, when And many people, when suffer, suffer, suffer, suffer alone. suffer alone. There is shame in this. THERE ARE There is shame in this. THERE ARE embarrassment. THERE ARE embarrassment. THERE ARE embarrassment. THERE ARE the feeling that I don't want to the feeling that I don't want to the feeling that I don't want to so that someone would know. I am not... so that someone would know. I am not... I don't think anyone I don't think anyone I don't think anyone can understand can understand can understand pain level. I don't want to pain level. I don't want to pain level. I don't want to to talk about it with to talk about it with to talk about it with with your advice. I have with your advice. I have with your advice. I have no friends, and that's it no friends, and that's it no friends, and that's it becomes more becomes more becomes more problem. Um, what's up?

problem. Um, what's up? problem. Um, what's up? Is this wrong? And what are you Is this wrong? And what are you Is this wrong? And what are you made to break made to break made to break this model in its this model in its this model in its life? life? life? Yes. And this is a strange dimension Yes. And this is a strange dimension Yes. And this is a strange dimension suffering, because, with suffering, because, with suffering, because, with On the one hand, I think On the one hand, I think On the one hand, I think that at least in some that at least in some that at least in some This is not God's form. This is not God's form. This is not God's form. intention for humanity. It intention for humanity. It intention for humanity. It result result result Fall. So this is Fall. So this is Fall. So this is not good. And yet, uh, not good. And yet, uh, not good. And yet, uh, this results in this results in this results in good, I don't know what, good, I don't know what, good, I don't know what, may occur may occur may occur apart from this. And I apart from this. And I apart from this. And I I think about how Paul I think about how Paul I think about how Paul writes: "Uh, I want writes: "Uh, I want writes: "Uh, I want to know Christ." It to know Christ." It to know Christ." It makes sense. Uh, and uh, uh makes sense. Uh, and uh, uh , to know His power. , to know His power. , to know His power. The power of resurrection. AT The power of resurrection. AT The power of resurrection. AT Yes. I want this. AND Yes. I want this. AND Yes. I want this. AND then I want to know then I want to know then I want to know His community His community His community suffering. Well, this suffering. Well, this suffering. Well, this strange to say, you strange to say, you strange to say, you Do you want to know? Hmm, and Do you want to know? Hmm, and Do you want to know? Hmm, and nevertheless, I find in nevertheless, I find in nevertheless, I find in my own life, uh, my own life, uh, my own life, uh, the deepest aspects the deepest aspects the deepest aspects pain associated with pain associated with pain associated with family and, uh, just family and, uh, just family and, uh, just personal belongings personal belongings personal belongings side, thus, side, thus, side, thus, when I conduct private when I conduct private when I conduct private conversations with others conversations with others conversations with others people, and they people, and they people, and they survived, uh, survived, uh, survived, uh, family pain or grief family pain or grief family pain or grief service, especially service, especially service, especially if it's even a little if it's even a little if it's even a little related to some related to some related to some things that make me things that make me things that make me went through, through which we went through, through which we went through, through which we passed, uh, yes passed, uh, yes passed, uh, yes depth of connection and, e- depth of connection and, e- e, the ability to go beyond e, the ability to go beyond e, the ability to go beyond the boundaries of the secular the boundaries of the secular the boundaries of the secular talk and meet talk and meet talk and meet at the level of the soul, and hope at the level of the soul, and hope , and the meaning, which , and the meaning, which , and the meaning, which They're taking over me, uh They're taking over me, uh , which would not be separate

, which would not be separate , which would not be separate from this. And that's why there is, from this. And that's why there is, from this. And that's why there is, you know, community you know, community you know, community suffering. Uh, suffering. Uh, suffering. Uh, a community that a community that a community that results from results from results from shared suffering, shared suffering, shared suffering, somehow deeper, somehow deeper, somehow deeper, than if it were than if it were than if it were Olympic group Olympic group Olympic group winners, winners, winners, supermodels or supermodels or supermodels or general general general directors who directors who directors who gathered together. gathered together. Yes. Of course. So, I Yes. Of course. So, I think i think uh think i think uh think i think uh invite people invite people invite people to realize this, to realize this, to realize this, to say that this to say that this to say that this part of the beauty of the church part of the beauty of the church part of the beauty of the church and her gift, it's uh, and her gift, it's uh, and her gift, it's uh, to learn together to learn together to learn together His community His community His community suffering. What if I suffering. What if I suffering. What if I I offer Him mine. I offer Him mine. I offer Him mine. suffering, and then suffering, and then suffering, and then I'm looking to see if there's a way, I'm looking to see if there's a way, I'm looking to see if there's a way, how can I how can I how can I talk to Tony, talk to Tony, talk to Tony, or with Kerry, not on or with Kerry, not on or with Kerry, not on the thought "here are my gifts and the thought "here are my gifts and the thought "here are my gifts and "Here is my wisdom," and, "Here is my wisdom," and, "Here is my wisdom," and, hmm, "that's what I hmm, "that's what I hmm, "that's what I I suffered, that's what I am I suffered, that's what I am I suffered, that's what I am suffer", hmm, uh, we suffer", hmm, uh, we suffer", hmm, uh, we we meet each other we meet each other we meet each other one in the deeper one in the deeper one in the deeper place. And somehow place. And somehow place. And somehow Jesus, passive, Jesus, passive, Jesus, passive, present for us in present for us in present for us in His and ours His and ours His and ours suffering like this suffering like this suffering like this in a way that is not in a way that is not in a way that is not true in triumph.

true in triumph. Yes. Yes. Tony, what about you? Tony, what about you? Tony, what about you? Because you were, you are from Because you were, you are from Because you were, you are from Introverted by nature. Introverted by nature. I am an introvert, and at first I am an introvert, and at first years of our service years of our service years of our service I was inclined. I was inclined. I was inclined. to withdraw in to withdraw in to withdraw in times of suffering, times of suffering, times of suffering, to move away from to move away from to move away from community. AND community. AND community. AND actually, in some way actually, in some way actually, in some way I remember that moment. I remember that moment. I remember that moment. the period when, uh, we the period when, uh, we the period when, uh, we it was hard to find it was hard to find it was hard to find friends when we friends when we friends when we moved north moved north moved north from Toronto, to from Toronto, to from Toronto, to the community in which we the community in which we the community in which we We live now. We live now. Actually Actually it took a few it took a few it took a few years, to years, to find a group of people, with find a group of people, with which we started with which we started with really tight really tight really tight communicate. Yes. communicate. Yes. It took a while. It took a while. time, and, uh, we time, and, uh, we time, and, uh, we enjoyed this enjoyed this enjoyed this friendship for several years, friendship for several years, friendship for several years, and then from some and then from some and then from some for a reason that I still don't understand for a reason that I still don't understand for a reason that I still don't understand I can completely I can completely I can completely to determine, uh, yes, to determine, uh, yes, friendship is simple friendship is simple fell apart, and I fell apart, and I fell apart, and I it was so painful, yes it was so painful, yes it was so painful, yes sad and sad and sad and really angry really angry really angry because of how it is because of how it is because of how it is happened. I gave, uh, happened. I gave, uh, happened. I gave, uh, a promise that was not then a promise that was not then a promise that was not then was on my radar, was on my radar, was on my radar, but, in fact, I just but, in fact, I just but, in fact, I just said: "Oh, to whom said: "Oh, to whom said: "Oh, to whom are needed at all are needed at all are needed at all friends?" And I hung up.

friends?" And I hung up. friends?" And I hung up. my heart, and I lived my heart, and I lived my heart, and I lived yes, several years, yes, several years, yes, several years, continuing continuing continuing to work, to take to work, to take to work, to take participation in church participation in church participation in church life, you know, life, you know, life, you know, to meet with to meet with to meet with friends, but mine friends, but mine friends, but mine the heart was distant. I the heart was distant. I the heart was distant. I was so reserved, was so reserved, was so reserved, and fortunately we were in and fortunately we were in and fortunately we were in a small group on a small group on a small group on that time. And when we that time. And when we that time. And when we passed our passed our passed our two-year cycle of the group, two-year cycle of the group, two-year cycle of the group, at the end of it God at the end of it God at the end of it God really showed me, really showed me, really showed me, what did I do and how did I what did I do and how did I what did I do and how did I reacted to this reacted to this reacted to this pain, and how I really am pain, and how I really am pain, and how I really am supported everyone in supported everyone in supported everyone in this group. It was this group. It was this group. It was a loving group, and they a loving group, and they a loving group, and they as if they found a way as if they found a way as if they found a way through my armor. But through my armor. But through my armor. But only at the end of this only at the end of this only at the end of this I was able to join the group I was able to join the group I was able to join the group to say, "Oh, I did to say, "Oh, I did to say, "Oh, I did That's all. I'm sorry that I That's all. I'm sorry that I That's all. I'm sorry that I kept you all on kept you all on kept you all on distances. Well, you distances. Well, you distances. Well, you actually found actually found actually found wonderful friends for wonderful friends for wonderful friends for lately, lately, lately, and therefore from that time, from and therefore from that time, from and therefore from that time, from as long as it is as long as it is as long as it is happened, reality happened, reality happened, reality what Paul is talking about what Paul is talking about what Paul is talking about says in Romans 12 says in Romans 12 where we in the church have where we in the church have where we in the church have to be a body, so much so to be a body, so much so to be a body, so much so closely linked between closely linked between closely linked between yourself, that, you know, us yourself, that, you know, us yourself, that, you know, us We are fed by the same blood We are fed by the same blood We are fed by the same blood We have one flesh, yes We have one flesh, yes We have one flesh, yes so to speak, if you so to speak, if you so to speak, if you body part, body part, body part, at least this at least this at least this metaphor. Hmm, I'm more metaphor. Hmm, I'm more metaphor. Hmm, I'm more I don't take it that way. AND I don't take it that way. AND I don't take it that way. AND now I know that if now I know that if now I know that if I am in trouble or I I am in trouble or I I am in trouble or I It really hurts.

It really hurts. It really hurts. for some reason, I for some reason, I for some reason, I I'm not holding it in anymore. I'm not holding it in anymore. I'm not holding it in anymore. myself, I'm not breaking my head myself, I'm not breaking my head myself, I'm not breaking my head and I don't shut up. IN and I don't shut up. IN and I don't shut up. IN I have people with whom I I have people with whom I I have people with whom I I have a code. I can I have a code. I can I have a code. I can just send just send just send message to message to message to to pray, and they to pray, and they to pray, and they will know how will know how will know how to pray, and what do I have to pray, and what do I have to pray, and what do I have there are no words for now there are no words for now there are no words for now this, but we this, but we this, but we See you later. See you later. See you later. But you know, Holy But you know, Holy But you know, Holy The Spirit can fill The Spirit can fill The Spirit can fill words. Hmm, but it was words. Hmm, but it was words. Hmm, but it was growth process for growth process for growth process for me me and for you. How about and for you. How about this? this? this? Oh, I just... Oh, I just... Oh, I just... I deeply resonate with that. I deeply resonate with that. than you both than you both than you both shared, John and shared, John and shared, John and Tony. And I think that Tony. And I think that Tony. And I think that just awareness just awareness just awareness that our that our that our the greatest stress in the greatest stress in the greatest stress in life is something more life is something more than suffering. than suffering. than suffering. The greatest stress The greatest stress The greatest stress actually comes from actually comes from actually comes from from the suffering itself. from the suffering itself. And, um, where we are And, um, where we are we divide we divide we divide suffering, we savor suffering, we savor suffering, we savor communion, communion with communion, communion with communion, communion with Christ, communion with Christ, communion with Christ, communion with body. Hmm, me too body. Hmm, me too I'm going back to those. I'm going back to those. periods when I periods when I periods when I I think: "I don't understand, I think: "I don't understand, I think: "I don't understand, why this injury, why this injury, why this injury, Lord, why are these Lord, why are these Lord, why are these suffering, that's right suffering, that's right suffering, that's right it hurts, and it seems that it hurts, and it seems that it hurts, and it seems that The enemy of our soul wants The enemy of our soul wants The enemy of our soul wants isolate us so that isolate us so that isolate us so that were not together were not together were not together suffering". Hmm, me too suffering". Hmm, me too suffering". Hmm, me too I just realize that I just realize that I just realize that Trauma is pain that Trauma is pain that Trauma is pain that you suffer alone, you suffer alone, you suffer alone, and what you can't do and what you can't do and what you can't do stop the wave stop the wave stop the wave injury, which injury, which injury, which is coming at you is coming at you is coming at you alone. But this alone. But this alone. But this another experience when another experience when another experience when you are a community that you are a community that you are a community that stands with you and stands with you and stands with you and next to when this wave next to when this wave next to when this wave Injury is coming Injury is coming Injury is coming on you. And I just

on you. And I just on you. And I just I will never forget how I will never forget how I will never forget how my father, our my father, our my father, our father, my father-in-law, father, my father-in-law, father, my father-in-law, died, perhaps died, perhaps died, perhaps a year and a half ago, in a year and a half ago, in a year and a half ago, in January of this year, and I January of this year, and I January of this year, and I stood there in line at stood there in line at stood there in line at reception, looking up reception, looking up reception, looking up and saw you both, Tony and saw you both, Tony and saw you both, Tony and Kerry, and you and Kerry, and you and Kerry, and you drove a long way drove a long way drove a long way the road, and like tears the road, and like tears the road, and like tears overflowed the eyes that overflowed the eyes that overflowed the eyes that you would love it so much, we you would love it so much, we you would love it so much, we love just like we do love just like we do love just like we do ready to endure ready to endure ready to endure inconvenience, and you inconvenience, and you inconvenience, and you both loved so much both loved so much both loved so much to endure inconvenience to endure inconvenience to endure inconvenience and to carry out and to carry out and to carry out a three-hour trip, a three-hour trip, a three-hour trip, to come and be with to come and be with to come and be with Daryl and I at that time Daryl and I at that time Daryl and I at that time moment of grief, and that these moment of grief, and that these moment of grief, and that these shared suffering shared suffering shared suffering were actually were actually were actually the taste of communion, which the taste of communion, which the taste of communion, which met us at met us at met us at truly empty truly empty truly empty place. So simple place. So simple place. So simple thank you for what you are thank you for what you are thank you for what you are were hands, feet were hands, feet were hands, feet and the heart of Jesus, because in and the heart of Jesus, because in and the heart of Jesus, because in deep suffering deep suffering deep suffering and deep sorrow for us and deep sorrow for us and deep sorrow for us testimony is required, and testimony is required, and testimony is required, and testimony from the body testimony from the body testimony from the body Christ's. Christ's. It was a joy to be with It was a joy to be with you and Darl that you and Darl that you and Darl that day, and, you know, a lot day, and, you know, a lot day, and, you know, a lot Which of us has bad luck? Which of us has bad luck? Which of us has bad luck? attempts at friendship. THERE ARE attempts at friendship. THERE ARE attempts at friendship. THERE ARE people like us people like us people like us we think we can we think we can we think we can to trust, but, to trust, but, to trust, but, maybe they weren't maybe they weren't maybe they weren't reliable, or sometimes reliable, or sometimes reliable, or sometimes friendship breaks up, friendship breaks up, friendship breaks up, and others survive. I and others survive. I and others survive. I I think about leaders, I think about leaders, I think about leaders, who would say: "God, who would say: "God, who would say: "God, if I had someone, if I had someone, if I had someone, Who could I be?

Who could I be? Who could I be? write write write message and message and message and just pray, just pray, just pray, or, it seems, to someone or, it seems, to someone or, it seems, to someone from your friends you can from your friends you can from your friends you can just send just send just send heart or white- heart or white- blue heart. blue heart. blue heart. The blue heart is The blue heart is The blue heart is a kind of code". Yes, a kind of code". Yes, a kind of code". Yes, You know, I'm happy that You know, I'm happy that You know, I'm happy that I have people to whom I have people to whom I have people to whom I can contact I can contact I can contact one moment. As one moment. As one moment. As find out who can find out who can find out who can trust? I want to trust? I want to trust? I want to you talked to you talked to you talked to a leader who says: " a leader who says: " I'm just eight. I'm just eight. I'm just eight. "were let down many times." "were let down many times." "were let down many times." Okay, maybe I Okay, maybe I Okay, maybe I an exception to the rule. an exception to the rule. an exception to the rule. How to find out what How to find out what How to find out what someone can someone can someone can trust? trust? You know, if someone You know, if someone interesting, there is a wonderful interesting, there is a wonderful interesting, there is a wonderful a small book, a small book, a small book, written about written about written about thousands of years ago thousands of years ago thousands of years ago a guy named Al Red a guy named Al Red . Al Red called her " . Al Red called her " spiritual friendship", spiritual friendship", and he was a man who and he was a man who simply fascinating simply fascinating simply fascinating friendship. He spoke. friendship. He spoke. friendship. He spoke. about what God is about what God is about what God is friendship, friendship, friendship, like a monk or something like a monk or something like a monk or something such, or " such, or " such, or " "Yes, he was a monk." "Yes, he was a monk." "Yes, he was a monk." Yes. Yes. Yes. And, uh, Yes. Yes. Yes. And, uh, Yes. Yes. Yes. And, uh, so the book is just so the book is just so the book is just wonderful, and she wonderful, and she wonderful, and she touches all of these touches all of these touches all of these questions, because questions, because questions, because Friendship is one of those Friendship is one of those Friendship is one of those things that we all things that we all things that we all we all love we all love we all love appreciate, at least appreciate, at least appreciate, at least we like it ourselves we like it ourselves we like it ourselves idea, but you can't idea, but you can't idea, but you can't make it happen.

make it happen. make it happen. You know, you can You know, you can You know, you can decide to bring decide to bring decide to bring get yourself in shape physically, get yourself in shape physically, get yourself in shape physically, take care of yourself take care of yourself take care of yourself finances or something like that. finances or something like that. finances or something like that. Your friendship Your friendship Your friendship she is coming she is coming she is coming comes as a gift, but comes as a gift, but comes as a gift, but this is one of those areas where this is one of those areas where this is one of those areas where you don't want to be you don't want to be you don't want to be passive. So, uh, passive. So, uh, passive. So, uh, his book is wonderful his book is wonderful his book is wonderful a small guide with a small guide with a small guide with this question. But I this question. But I this question. But I I say, if someone I say, if someone I say, if someone wants this, you know, wants this, you know, wants this, you know, be sure to start with be sure to start with be sure to start with prayers. Simply prayers. Simply prayers. Simply say: "And now, say: "And now, say: "And now, God, couldn't you? God, couldn't you? God, couldn't you? remind me of the name remind me of the name remind me of the name someone who can be someone who can be someone who can be my friend? Uh, and my friend? Uh, and my friend? Uh, and then I always look for then I always look for then I always look for a few points. On- a few points. On- first, I have first, I have first, I have to admire their to admire their to admire their character. You know, character. You know, character. You know, if I'm going to have if I'm going to have if I'm going to have friend, I want this friend, I want this friend, I want this there was someone who there was someone who there was someone who will help me lead will help me lead will help me lead me in the right place me in the right place me in the right place direction. Uh, direction. Uh, direction. Uh, Aristotle said Aristotle said Aristotle said about three different types about three different types about three different types friendship. Utility, friendship. Utility, friendship. Utility, fun, but then fun, but then fun, but then partners and virtue. partners and virtue. partners and virtue. And most importantly, And most importantly, And most importantly, the best view is the best view is the best view is partners and virtue. partners and virtue. partners and virtue. So I want someone who So I want someone who So I want someone who will be like this. And then will be like this. And then will be like this. And then someone who does someone who does someone who does makes me happy. Um, makes me happy. Um, makes me happy. Um, Do you know where joy is? Do you know where joy is? Do you know where joy is? because friendship doesn't work, because friendship doesn't work, because friendship doesn't work, if you really don't if you really don't if you really don't Do you want to be with someone? Do you want to be with someone? . It's just one of those . It's just one of those . It's just one of those things you don't things you don't things you don't you can do with you can do with you can do with sense of duty. Um, sense of duty. Um, sense of duty. Um, and then you know what and then you know what and then you know what you are just starting, you are just starting, you are just starting, it's like in middle school it's like in middle school it's like in middle school school, but no one school, but no one school, but no one explained this to me explained this to me explained this to me in high school. So in high school. So in high school. So then I had enough then I had enough then I had enough alone. I did alone. I did alone. I did one small step one small step one small step at a time. You invite at a time. You invite at a time. You invite them for a cup of coffee and them for a cup of coffee and them for a cup of coffee and look how it is there, or look how it is there, or look how it is there, or you know, if we you know, if we you know, if we we both like to play we both like to play we both like to play golf or reading golf or reading golf or reading a book or something like that, or a book or something like that, or a book or something like that, or can we do this can we do this can we do this together and see, together and see, together and see, do we like it do we like it do we like it do? Do we want do? Do we want do? Do we want both meet both meet both meet more often? Um, and then more often? Um, and then more often? Um, and then Elred actually Elred actually Elred actually said that in friendship he

said that in friendship he said that in friendship he actually actually actually uses the phrase, uses the phrase, uses the phrase, what should be what should be what should be trial trial trial term. term. So I think we So I think we we can become truly we can become truly we can become truly good friends. good friends. good friends. Deep friend, Deep friend, Deep friend, A spiritual friend is one who A spiritual friend is one who A spiritual friend is one who Who do I have in front of me? Who do I have in front of me? Who do I have in front of me? there are no secrets. Ahem, there are no secrets. Ahem, there are no secrets. Ahem, but trial but trial but trial term is a period, term is a period, term is a period, when I just when I just when I just I find out by doing I find out by doing I find out by doing small steps towards small steps towards small steps towards vulnerability with you, vulnerability with you, vulnerability with you, How do you react? You How do you react? You How do you react? You Do you trust me? Do you trust me? Do you trust me? Are you gossiping? You Are you gossiping? You Are you gossiping? You Are you condemning me? Or Are you condemning me? Or Are you condemning me? Or Are you capable of being yourself? Are you capable of being yourself? Are you capable of being yourself? vulnerable? And, as I vulnerable? And, as I vulnerable? And, as I I'll start with what I I'll start with what I I'll start with what I quarreled with Nancy, quarreled with Nancy, quarreled with Nancy, and this is how it is and this is how it is and this is how it is It's over. And then It's over. And then It's over. And then I delve into I delve into confession and confession and vulnerability. Then I vulnerability. Then I vulnerability. Then I I'll find out if it reacts. I'll find out if it reacts. I'll find out if it reacts. Is this person reliable? Uh-huh Is this person reliable? Uh-huh , and yes, I saw how , and yes, I saw how , and yes, I saw how people are very strong people are very strong people are very strong suffered, suffered, suffered, prematurely prematurely prematurely confessing to someone, confessing to someone, confessing to someone, who was ready for them who was ready for them who was ready for them to offend to offend So So great advice. And for great advice. And for great advice. And for you, how does it look you, how does it look you, how does it look friendship throughout friendship throughout friendship throughout many years? many years? many years? Oh, that's good, John. I Oh, that's good, John. I Oh, that's good, John. I I mean, I mean, I mean, especially thinking about especially thinking about especially thinking about that God is friendship.

that God is friendship. that God is friendship. I mean, he I mean, he I mean, he literally triune literally triune literally triune God. God. God. Yes. Ahem, Yes. Ahem, Yes. Ahem, and it goes back to and it goes back to and it goes back to your opinion, Kerry, your opinion, Kerry, your opinion, Kerry, about what success is? about what success is? about what success is? Well, if the relationship is Well, if the relationship is Well, if the relationship is reality, then reality, then How do I put it first? How do I put it first? a place of friendship and a place of friendship and a place of friendship and relationship? Hmm, I think so. relationship? Hmm, I think so. relationship? Hmm, I think so. Tony, I just... Tony, I just... Tony, I just... I resonate with you. I resonate with you. I resonate with you. heart. I think that heart. I think that heart. I think that sometimes we hurt and sometimes we hurt and sometimes we hurt and early. We think: to whom early. We think: to whom early. We think: to whom need friendship? IN need friendship? IN need friendship? IN I have all this here. I have all this here. I have all this here. the job that I am doing the job that I am doing the job that I am doing God called. I God called. I God called. I I'll take care of it and I'll take care of it and I'll take care of it and I will give myself. Hmm, books I will give myself. Hmm, books I will give myself. Hmm, books They won't hurt me. AT, They won't hurt me. AT, They won't hurt me. AT, My God, how much My God, how much My God, how much How many times have I said that? Hmm, How many times have I said that? Hmm, but awareness but awareness that some of the that some of the that some of the the longest, the longest, the longest, the deepest, the deepest, the deepest, longitudinal longitudinal longitudinal research research research human prosperity human prosperity human prosperity are returning to are returning to are returning to What does it look like? As What does it look like? As What does it look like? As yours look like yours look like yours look like relationship? What does it look like? relationship? What does it look like? relationship? What does it look like? intimacy in your 40s, 50s intimacy in your 40s, 50s , 60, 70 years old? So, how , 60, 70 years old? So, how , 60, 70 years old? So, how we deliberately we deliberately we deliberately we cultivate these we cultivate these we cultivate these relationship? And I think, relationship? And I think, relationship? And I think, What an epiphany for me What an epiphany for me What an epiphany for me was gentle and was gentle and was gentle and painful. And Tony, you painful. And Tony, you painful. And Tony, you testified to this with testified to this with testified to this with such a cross-shaped such a cross-shaped such a cross-shaped with love and tenderness, with love and tenderness, with love and tenderness, what, um, we had what, um, we had what, um, we had it hurts in the community, and it hurts in the community, and it hurts in the community, and we can heal we can heal we can heal only in the community, and that only in the community, and that only in the community, and that The Lord must give The Lord must give The Lord must give we have the grace to we have the grace to we have the grace to lead us forward lead us forward lead us forward back to the community. And I back to the community. And I back to the community. And I I think that for me I think that for me I think that for me most of my most of my most of my Healing has come.

Healing has come. Healing has come. thanks to the fact that we, thanks to the fact that we, thanks to the fact that we, It seems we are moving on. It seems we are moving on. It seems we are moving on. for the sixth year. We have for the sixth year. We have for the sixth year. We have covenant community covenant community covenant community confessors. Us confessors. Us confessors. Us seven. And, um, we seven. And, um, we seven. And, um, we let's just say that I don't let's just say that I don't ...you have...mine ...you have...mine ...you have...mine commitment to commitment to commitment to confidentiality. IN confidentiality. IN confidentiality. IN you are mine you are mine you are mine commitment that I will not commitment that I will not commitment that I will not I will leave the room. I will leave the room. I will leave the room. What to every life What to every life What to every life need a lifer, and need a lifer, and need a lifer, and I will be one of yours. I will be one of yours. I will be one of yours. lifers. Whatever you do lifers. Whatever you do lifers. Whatever you do shared that, on shared that, on shared that, on in your opinion, it will be in your opinion, it will be in your opinion, it will be a bomb that a bomb that a bomb that will cause a rupture, will cause a rupture, will cause a rupture, which is impossible which is impossible which is impossible correct me correct me correct me I will stay in I will stay in I will stay in room with you to room with you to room with you to testify to your testify to your testify to your life. And, um, we have life. And, um, we have life. And, um, we have community of seven community of seven community of seven people who do this people who do this people who do this for each other in for each other in for each other in textual textual textual message, we have message, we have message, we have monthly three-hour monthly three-hour monthly three-hour Zoom call, annual Zoom call, annual Zoom call, annual retreat, we retreat, we retreat, we we appear one for we appear one for we appear one for one, and we one, and we one, and we we appear, as then, we appear, as then, we appear, as then, when I switched to when I switched to when I switched to radio silence because I'm in radio silence because I'm in radio silence because I'm in valley, and I just valley, and I just valley, and I just I think: "Oh, what now?" I think: "Oh, what now?" I think: "Oh, what now?" happening in my happening in my happening in my life? I don't want any of it. life? I don't want any of it. life? I don't want any of it. Who to talk to about this? Who to talk to about this? ". ". ". Yes, Yes, Yes, and when one of these and when one of these and when one of these people call and say people call and say : "Hey, you're not : "Hey, you're not : "Hey, you're not you answer none you answer none you answer none message. Do you want? message. Do you want? message. Do you want? talk about it? For talk about it? For talk about it? For if not, I'll sit in if not, I'll sit in if not, I'll sit in the plane and I will wait near the plane and I will wait near the plane and I will wait near your door, because we your door, because we your door, because we We have to live in a community.

We have to live in a community. We have to live in a community. And I just...I want to And I just...I want to And I just...I want to thank you, Tony thank you, Tony . How many weekends or . How many weekends or . How many weekends or canoe trips, canoe trips, canoe trips, and you were such a friend, and you were such a friend, and you were such a friend, to bear witness to all to bear witness to all to bear witness to all aspects of my life. AND aspects of my life. AND aspects of my life. AND I think, you know, sometimes I think, you know, sometimes I think, you know, sometimes we want...we want we want...we want we want...we want friend, and the Lord friend, and the Lord friend, and the Lord invites us to be that invites us to be that invites us to be that friend whom we friend whom we friend whom we we want. And you were for we want. And you were for we want. And you were for me such a friend, me such a friend, me such a friend, again and again, and again again and again, and again . Tony, I am so grateful. . Tony, I am so grateful. . Tony, I am so grateful. to you, sister. to you, sister. Also very grateful Also very grateful you. Uh, you. Uh, you. Uh, it's a pleasure. I it's a pleasure. I it's a pleasure. I I feel like this is mine. I feel like this is mine. I feel like this is mine. pleasure. pleasure. pleasure. Tony, how did you do it? Tony, how did you do it? Tony, how did you do it? find friends for find friends for find friends for someone who had someone who had someone who had predisposition predisposition predisposition to withdraw into oneself or to withdraw into oneself or to withdraw into oneself or said: "I prefer said: "I prefer said: "I prefer himself. himself. himself. Actually, come on. Actually, come on. Actually, come on. Let's talk about it. It Let's talk about it. It Let's talk about it. It one of one of one of fundamental fundamental fundamental the lie of your life. the lie of your life. the lie of your life. That's right. That's right. That's right. I'm exposing her here. I'm exposing her here. I'm exposing her here. No, no, I think you No, no, I think you No, no, I think you can you talk about it can you talk about it can you talk about it publicly. publicly. publicly. Yes. No, Yes. No, Yes. No, we talk about it a lot we talk about it a lot we talk about it a lot talked. Yes. I, uh, talked. Yes. I, uh, talked. Yes. I, uh, concluded that concluded that concluded that my basic scheme, my basic scheme, my basic scheme, probably in any probably in any probably in any case, would be uh case, would be uh case, would be uh five, and this arose five, and this arose five, and this arose from a childhood trauma, from a childhood trauma, from a childhood trauma, which I experienced, and which I experienced, and which I experienced, and just from this just from this just from this the feeling that I belong to no one the feeling that I belong to no one the feeling that I belong to no one I can't trust I can't trust I can't trust so I better be so I better be so I better be herself. I need herself. I need herself. I need strengthen all resources strengthen all resources strengthen all resources and be independent and be independent and be independent and independent, and this and independent, and this and independent, and this was my main was my main was my main approach to life, while approach to life, while approach to life, while We haven't met. Not We haven't met. Not We haven't met. Not so that I don't have so that I don't have so that I don't have friends. I had friends. I had friends. I had a circle of 13 friends in a circle of 13 friends in a circle of 13 friends in high school.

high school. high school. Are you still friends with Are you still friends with Are you still friends with some of them? some of them? some of them? Yes, I still have this one. Yes, I still have this one. Yes, I still have this one. friendship. Uh, but that's not friendship. Uh, but that's not friendship. Uh, but that's not was, uh, the wrong one was, uh, the wrong one was, uh, the wrong one close friendship, about close friendship, about close friendship, about which we are talking about here. THERE ARE which we are talking about here. THERE ARE -uh, and that's why I think that -uh, and that's why I think that -uh, and that's why I think that for many for many for many I'm the same age as you, John. I'm the same age as you, John. , looked at who... , looked at who... what trajectory what trajectory what trajectory This person's life is going... This person's life is going... What is this person doing? What is this person doing? Like, this is someone who Like, this is someone who wants to do some wants to do some wants to do some contribution to the world? Uh, or contribution to the world? Uh, or contribution to the world? Uh, or they live for themselves, they live for themselves, they live for themselves, Do they live to Do they live to Do they live to improve life improve life improve life other people? And I think other people? And I think that I gravitate towards, um, that I gravitate towards, um, that I gravitate towards, um, the last one. Uh, the last one. Uh, the last one. Uh, You know, I-I want to You know, I-I want to You know, I-I want to to be friends with someone who to be friends with someone who to be friends with someone who will help me will help me will help me move forward. Um, move forward. Um, move forward. Um, but at the same time, we but at the same time, we but at the same time, we we are not talking about we are not talking about we are not talking about relationships where we relationships where we relationships where we we take. This is reciprocity. we take. This is reciprocity. , there must be reciprocity , there must be reciprocity , there must be reciprocity in giving and in giving and in giving and brothers, celebrate with brothers, celebrate with brothers, celebrate with those who celebrate, those who celebrate, those who celebrate, to grieve with those who to grieve with those who to grieve with those who sad. Uh, so, um, yes sad. Uh, so, um, yes , we were one for , we were one for , we were one for one. Me one. Me one. Me I like how you do it.

I like how you do it. I like how you do it. You describe, Anne. You You describe, Anne. You You describe, Anne. You for life for life for life prisoners. prisoners. prisoners. Yes, forever Yes, forever Yes, forever prisoners. To everyone prisoners. To everyone prisoners. To everyone life needs life needs life needs life imprisonment. life imprisonment. What is most useful? What is most useful? someone told you, someone told you, someone told you, when you have spiritual when you have spiritual when you have spiritual difficulty? I have on difficulty? I have on difficulty? I have on mind, sometimes it happens mind, sometimes it happens mind, sometimes it happens time, I think you have time, I think you have time, I think you have right, these people in right, these people in right, these people in on the bus, those who on the bus, those who on the bus, those who survived the Holocaust, survived the Holocaust, survived the Holocaust, John, when you think: John, when you think: John, when you think: "I don't have "I don't have "I don't have answers to your answers to your answers to your suffering". And I suffering". And I suffering". And I I think the church I think the church I think the church full of clichés full of clichés full of clichés answers. Hmm, which ones answers. Hmm, which ones answers. Hmm, which ones actually more actually more actually more hurt, than hurt, than hurt, than help. But when help. But when help. But when Are you really struggling? Are you really struggling? Are you really struggling? what maybe I want what maybe I want what maybe I want expand the question. What expand the question. What expand the question. What the best someone the best someone the best someone said or did so said or did so said or did so to help you with your to help you with your to help you with your dark night of the soul? dark night of the soul? Uh, when we were at Uh, when we were at Grand Fondo on Grand Fondo on Grand Fondo on east coast, east coast, oh yes, a bike race. oh yes, a bike race. Yes, those were Yes, those were Yes, those were cycling events. Yes. cycling events. Yes. cycling events. Yes. As everyone knows, Grand- As everyone knows, Grand- Fondo. No. Uh, Fondo. No. Uh, Fondo. No. Uh, cycling events on cycling events on cycling events on Prince's Island Prince's Island Prince's Island Edward, on the east side Edward, on the east side Edward, on the east side coast. We were coast. We were coast. We were there with friends, shared there with friends, shared there with friends, shared Airbnb.

Airbnb. Airbnb. We were. And it was time, We were. And it was time, We were. And it was time, when I started to fall when I started to fall when I started to fall into clinical depression. into clinical depression. Uh, and I understood, Uh, and I understood, when we got there when we got there when we got there on those weekends that on those weekends that on those weekends that I thought I wouldn't be able to. I thought I wouldn't be able to. I thought I wouldn't be able to. survive this weekend. survive this weekend. Like, I just Like, I just there are no reserves. IN there are no reserves. IN there are no reserves. IN I have no strength. I have no strength. I have no strength. join everyone join everyone join everyone these measures, and I do not these measures, and I do not these measures, and I do not I want to be...I don't want to. I want to be...I don't want to. I want to be...I don't want to. to be Eeyore in the group. Well, to be Eeyore in the group. Well, to be Eeyore in the group. Well, The bike was nearby. The bike was nearby. The bike was nearby. But actually mine But actually mine But actually mine emotional state was emotional state was emotional state was so bad that so bad that so bad that we arrived, we arrived, we arrived, landed, I was landed, I was landed, I was there for a few hours, and there for a few hours, and there for a few hours, and then I thought: me then I thought: me then I thought: me need need need rebook a ticket rebook a ticket rebook a ticket and get out of here and get out of here and get out of here tonight. tonight. tonight. I need I need I need to return home and to return home and to return home and to be alone. And we to be alone. And we to be alone. And we we were there we were there we were there stopped there in, um, stopped there in, um, stopped there in, um, couples who are ours couples who are ours couples who are ours friends. friends. friends. Yes. Very good Yes. Very good Yes. Very good friends. friends. friends. And when she found out And when she found out , she said: " , she said: " Yes, Tony makes me Yes, Tony makes me Yes, Tony makes me book her book her book her "ticket home." And I "ticket home." And I "ticket home." And I sent by Rose sent by Rose sent by Rose message and message and message and said: "Hello, said: "Hello, said: "Hello, my wife wants my wife wants my wife wants go.

go. go. I just think that you, I just think that you, I just think that you, You probably should know that. You probably should know that. ". And then, ". And then, ". And then, and then Rose came in. and then Rose came in. and then Rose came in. She came straight up. She came straight up. She came straight up. to me, it seems, to me, it seems, to me, it seems, actually, you know, actually, you know, actually, you know, came to ours came to ours came to ours bedroom, to mine bedroom, to mine bedroom, to mine room, and said: " room, and said: " No, you can't go, No, you can't go, No, you can't go, like, right now. like, right now. like, right now. If that's what If that's what If that's what is happening, uh, is happening, uh, is happening, uh, you need you need you need to stay here. What, what to stay here. What, what to stay here. What, what we can for you we can for you we can for you to do, uh, to to do, uh, to to do, uh, to satisfy your satisfy your satisfy your need? You know, you don't need? You know, you don't need? You know, you don't you can go home and you can go home and you can go home and "just to be alone." "just to be alone." "just to be alone." And that was what I And that was what I And that was what I honestly, it's necessary, uh. honestly, it's necessary, uh. She was once She was once more convincing than more convincing than more convincing than me, me, me, yes, she was yes, she was yes, she was lot lot lot more convincing, more convincing, more convincing, more persistent and more persistent and more persistent and more persistent, but more persistent, but more persistent, but it was 100% what it was 100% what it was 100% what I need it. I need it. I need it. Mmm. This is wonderful. Mmm. This is wonderful. Mmm. This is wonderful. example. Sometimes it is example. Sometimes it is example. Sometimes it is quote, sometimes quote, sometimes quote, sometimes intervention. intervention. intervention. Mmm. Mmm. John, for you. Uh, one word and one action, one word and one action, uh, both in very uh, both in very uh, both in very deep moments, uh, deep moments, uh, deep moments, uh, associated with pain, associated with pain, associated with pain, especially especially especially parental pain, parental pain, parental pain, which was so which was so which was so strong, that I didn't have strong, that I didn't have strong, that I didn't have active active active suicidal thoughts, suicidal thoughts, suicidal thoughts, but I felt that but I felt that but I felt that if I died tomorrow if I died tomorrow , I would like it completely , I would like it completely , I would like it completely It was convenient. As if I It was convenient. As if I It was convenient. As if I finished finished finished verify. And, uh, we verify. And, uh, we verify. And, uh, we with Nancy shared with Nancy shared with Nancy shared this with only a few this with only a few this with only a few people, because it was people, because it was people, because it was very personal. Uh, yeah very personal. Uh, yeah very personal. Uh, yeah then one of the people, then one of the people, then one of the people, whom I called, whom I called, whom I called, to discuss this to discuss this to discuss this situation, was Dallas situation, was Dallas situation, was Dallas Willard, who is many Willard, who is many Willard, who is many our listeners our listeners our listeners know how know how know how writer and writer and writer and simply a wonderful person.

simply a wonderful person. simply a wonderful person. So I said a little So I said a little So I said a little this, and then there was a long this, and then there was a long this, and then there was a long pause with dallas. pause with dallas. pause with dallas. It was always long. It was always long. It was always long. pause. And then he pause. And then he pause. And then he said: "This will be said: "This will be said: "This will be your test your test your test joyful confidence joyful confidence joyful confidence in God." in God." Nobody else, nothing. Nobody else, nothing. didn't say anything like that. didn't say anything like that. didn't say anything like that. Everyone else says, "This, Everyone else says, "This, Everyone else says, "This, It must be very difficult. We It must be very difficult. We It must be very difficult. We let's pray for you. let's pray for you. let's pray for you. It will be difficult. It will be difficult. It will be difficult. to experience doubts, to experience doubts, to experience doubts, Not at all. It Not at all. It Not at all. It just a pause. This will be just a pause. This will be just a pause. This will be your test your test your test joyful confidence joyful confidence joyful confidence in God. And, uh, in God. And, uh, in God. And, uh, At first it seemed At first it seemed At first it seemed a little sharp, like: " a little sharp, like: " Let's check. Let's check. Let's check. your joyful your joyful your joyful confidence in God confidence in God ". ". But then, you know, I But then, you know, I thought he was thought he was thought he was absolutely right. Uh, absolutely right. Uh, or is there God and Father, as or is there God and Father, as described by Jesus, and I can described by Jesus, and I can described by Jesus, and I can with joy completely with joy completely with joy completely to entrust, including to entrust, including to entrust, including my children, His my children, His my children, His hands, hands, or there is no such God , and in this case in , and in this case in , and in this case in I will arise I will arise I will arise much larger much larger much larger problems than this one problems than this one problems than this one specific situation." specific situation." specific situation." But in any case But in any case But in any case what he said, what he said, what he said, was absolutely was absolutely was absolutely correct. This will be correct. This will be correct. This will be your test your test your test joyful confidence joyful confidence joyful confidence in God. And I thought in God. And I thought in God. And I thought about this sentence about this sentence about this sentence literally thousands and literally thousands and literally thousands and thousands of times thousands of times thousands of times for many for many for many years. It's simple.

years. It's simple. years. It's simple. became a test became a test became a test your joyful your joyful your joyful confidence in God. confidence in God. confidence in God. It just becomes It just becomes It just becomes real real real foundation. Yes, it is. foundation. Yes, it is. foundation. Yes, it is. absolutely correct. absolutely correct. absolutely correct. This does not mean that This does not mean that This does not mean that the situation will develop the situation will develop the situation will develop the way I want. Uh, this is the way I want. Uh, this is the way I want. Uh, this is doesn't even mean that doesn't even mean that ...God exists. Just this ...God exists. Just this ...God exists. Just this will be a test will be a test will be a test my joyful my joyful my joyful confidence in God. THERE ARE- confidence in God. THERE ARE- uh, and then another uh, and then another uh, and then another moment, many years moment, many years moment, many years therefore, was in fact therefore, was in fact therefore, was in fact a dark time when, uh, a dark time when, uh, a dark time when, uh, All hell broke loose, and All hell broke loose, and All hell broke loose, and most of it most of it most of it should have stayed very should have stayed very should have stayed very confidential. And, as confidential. And, as confidential. And, as It turned out that my It turned out that my It turned out that my best friend out of 15 best friend out of 15 best friend out of 15 years old, Chuck, uh, had years old, Chuck, uh, had years old, Chuck, uh, had come out and be with me. come out and be with me. And, uh, because of everything that And, uh, because of everything that happened, he didn't happened, he didn't happened, he didn't could, because it was simple could, because it was simple could, because it was simple because of all these crises because of all these crises because of all these crises situations. So I situations. So I situations. So I called him and called him and called him and said: "Uh, I said: "Uh, I said: "Uh, I you need not you need not you need not came. I can't came. I can't came. I can't tell you why I tell you why I tell you why I I can't invite. I can't invite. I can't invite. you. I want you to you. I want you to you. I want you to knew that I would never knew that I would never knew that I would never needed you needed you needed you more than now. more than now. more than now. I just need, I just need, I just need, so that you know that I am not so that you know that I am not so that you know that I am not can I invite you can I invite you can I invite you now".

now". now". And his immediate And his immediate And his immediate The answer was: "Oh no, The answer was: "Oh no, The answer was: "Oh no, I will go out. « I will go out. « Oho. Oho. Oho. I'll just sit by. I'll just sit by. I'll just sit by. your doorstep. I your doorstep. I your doorstep. I I'll just sit by. I'll just sit by. I'll just sit by. your apartment, I will your apartment, I will your apartment, I will there these three days, but I there these three days, but I there these three days, but I I'm leaving. No, something on I'm leaving. No, something on I'm leaving. No, something on like the future. like the future. Oho. I never I never it occurred to me that it occurred to me that it occurred to me that he could say " he could say " no" and say: "I'm all no" and say: "I'm all no" and say: "I'm all "I'll come anyway." AND, "I'll come anyway." AND, "I'll come anyway." AND, of course, his of course, his of course, his presence there, he presence there, he presence there, he did not stay on did not stay on did not stay on on the doorstep all the time. AND on the doorstep all the time. AND on the doorstep all the time. AND during this time during this time during this time for him for him for him the door opened, the door opened, the door opened, which were, you know, very which were, you know, very , very responsive to , very responsive to , very responsive to prayers. Great if prayers. Great if prayers. Great if use, use, use, maybe too much maybe too much maybe too much the term used, but the term used, but the term used, but perfectly. Uh, but I perfectly. Uh, but I perfectly. Uh, but I never until the end of life never until the end of life never until the end of life I will never forget how I did it. I will never forget how I did it. I will never forget how I did it. said, and then said, and then said, and then I just heard him say I just heard him say I just heard him say said, "Oh no, I'm leaving." said, "Oh no, I'm leaving." said, "Oh no, I'm leaving." « « I see that it is still I see that it is still I see that it is still emotionally, John. emotionally, John. emotionally, John. Yes. Yes. Yes. This is very Yes. Yes. Yes. This is very Yes. Yes. Yes. This is very deep.

deep. And the most useful thing is that And the most useful thing is that someone ever someone ever someone ever said or did. Oh, yes said or did. Oh, yes said or did. Oh, yes it's important to just hear, it's important to just hear, it's important to just hear, as you all testify as you all testify as you all testify about God's faithfulness about God's faithfulness about God's faithfulness through His people. Ahem, through His people. Ahem, I think, uh, in those days I think, uh, in those days after after after my father died, my father died, my father died, it was so deep it was so deep it was so deep disorienting, and, um, disorienting, and, um, disorienting, and, um, and I truly believe that and I truly believe that and I truly believe that sometimes when grief sometimes when grief sometimes when grief the deepest, the words have the deepest, the words have the deepest, the words have to be the least And, um, in to be the least And, um, in to be the least And, um, in I had a girlfriend, I had a girlfriend, I had a girlfriend, whom I know from school whom I know from school , I called her , I called her , I called her serving meat serving meat serving meat roll, and she roll, and she roll, and she brought me three. brought me three. Many people Many people come, for example, come, for example, come, for example, a couple of days after a couple of days after a couple of days after of how someone has of how someone has of how someone has grief or loss in grief or loss in grief or loss in family. But she is everything. family. But she is everything. family. But she is everything. still brought me still brought me still brought me four casseroles, four casseroles, four casseroles, five, six weeks five, six weeks five, six weeks then, again and again: then, again and again: then, again and again: "I don't need "I don't need "I don't need words, I just words, I just words, I just you need to come and you need to come and you need to come and give you something warm, give you something warm, give you something warm, when you can't when you can't when you can't fall asleep when your fall asleep when your fall asleep when your teeth chatter when teeth chatter when teeth chatter when you can't do anything you can't do anything you can't do anything to hold Can I to hold Can I to hold Can I just bring it to you just bring it to you just bring it to you food and sit with food and sit with food and sit with you without any you without any you without any questions? Therefore, I think, questions? Therefore, I think, questions? Therefore, I think, that sometimes Just someone's that sometimes Just someone's that sometimes Just someone's presence, uh, without presence, uh, without presence, uh, without no words, no words, no words, speaks to us like this speaks to us like this speaks to us like this deep. And then I deep. And then I deep. And then I I think, uh, in those first I think, uh, in those first I think, uh, in those first a few days and weeks a few days and weeks a few days and weeks after after after Dad died, uh, Dad died, uh, Dad died, uh, sometimes you need sometimes you need sometimes you need someone who has passed someone who has passed someone who has passed this way before

this way before this way before you and survived you and survived you and survived deep sorrow. And what? deep sorrow. And what? deep sorrow. And what? as far as I'm concerned, then as far as I'm concerned, then Kay Warren for Kay Warren for behind the scenes just behind the scenes just behind the scenes just wrote to me wrote to me wrote to me message and message and message and emails, not emails, not emails, not left me in left me in left me in peace and even peace and even peace and even sent me sent me sent me list of books that list of books that list of books that worth reading under worth reading under worth reading under time of grief, and I would begin time of grief, and I would begin time of grief, and I would begin from this. And she from this. And she from this. And she really gave me really gave me really gave me curriculum, e curriculum, e -er, for grief, and this, er, -er, for grief, and this, er, -er, for grief, and this, er, it was like this it was like this it was like this accompanied in such a accompanied in such a accompanied in such a dark valley, and I dark valley, and I dark valley, and I I think, uh, that's exactly it, I think, uh, that's exactly it, I think, uh, that's exactly it, what we read in what we read in what we read in Scriptures that are comforting, Scriptures that are comforting, Scriptures that are comforting, which we were comforted by, which we were comforted by, which we were comforted by, now can comfort now can comfort now can comfort others. Uh, so when others. Uh, so when others. Uh, so when we are passing through we are passing through we are passing through deep dark deep dark deep dark suffering, what gives suffering, what gives suffering, what gives I trust you. I trust you. I trust you. continue to serve continue to serve , these are our own valleys, , these are our own valleys, , these are our own valleys, because of which you too because of which you too because of which you too passed. I think Rick passed. I think Rick passed. I think Rick Warren once said: Warren once said: Warren once said: "I don't know if I heard that "I don't know if I heard that "I don't know if I heard that from him, or from third parties from him, or from third parties from him, or from third parties hands when someone hands when someone hands when someone deeply suffering, deeply suffering, deeply suffering, "appear and shut up." "appear and shut up."

Pretty good advice. Job's friends Job's friends were wrong about everyone were wrong about everyone were wrong about everyone explanations, explanations, explanations, Right? Why are you Right? Why are you Right? Why are you are you still continuing? are you still continuing? are you still continuing? trust? I have on trust? I have on trust? I have on meaning that there are many meaning that there are many meaning that there are many people who people who people who deconverted, deconverted, deconverted, many people who many people who many people who abandoned abandoned abandoned Christian Christian Christian leadership and simple leadership and simple leadership and simple said: "I am not only said: "I am not only said: "I am not only I won't do this anymore. I won't do this anymore. , uh, for some reason, , uh, for some reason, , uh, for some reason, which we have outlined which we have outlined which we have outlined today during today during today during our common our common our common meeting, but also as if I meeting, but also as if I meeting, but also as if I not sure I am yet not sure I am yet not sure I am yet I am busy with God. I am busy with God. I am busy with God. Question now Question now Question now prevail prevail prevail answers, or answers, or answers, or uncertainty uncertainty uncertainty Clarity prevails. Clarity prevails. Why you personally Why you personally you continue to trust you continue to trust you continue to trust Tony? And you? I Tony? And you? I Tony? And you? I I think that at this time I think that at this time I think that at this time the moment I saw the moment I saw too much evidence too much evidence the presence of the Holy the presence of the Holy the presence of the Holy The spirit is here and now. The spirit is here and now. The Experience of the Holy Spirit The Experience of the Holy Spirit with me, you know, with me, you know, with me, you know, vision of what vision of what vision of what happening on my happening on my happening on my eyes. Um, witness eyes. Um, witness eyes. Um, witness resurrection of someone, resurrection of someone, resurrection of someone, who was dead who was dead who was dead medically, dead for medically, dead for medically, dead for all intents and purposes.

all intents and purposes. Um, I just saw it. Um, I just saw it. too much evidence to too much evidence to , uh, turn away , uh, turn away , uh, turn away or allow any or allow any which, you know, which, you know, which, you know, to divert the question to divert the question to divert the question me. It's just like that. me. It's just like that. me. It's just like that. really. As if from God really. As if from God really. As if from God presence on earth presence on earth presence on earth with us so much with us so much with us so much real to me that I real to me that I real to me that I I don't want any other. I don't want any other. I don't want any other. alternatives. I am not alternatives. I am not alternatives. I am not I see no other I see no other I see no other alternatives for alternatives for alternatives for himself". himself". himself". Yes, Tony. What we Yes, Tony. What we Yes, Tony. What we We saw, we can't We saw, we can't We saw, we can't forget. As soon as you forget. As soon as you forget. As soon as you survived it, you didn't survived it, you didn't survived it, you didn't you can forget it. And I you can forget it. And I you can forget it. And I I think I'm just I think I'm just I think I'm just I keep coming back. I keep coming back. I keep coming back. to the fact that optics to the fact that optics to the fact that optics our heart does not our heart does not our heart does not omniscient. The way mine omniscient. The way mine omniscient. The way mine The heart sees the world, not The heart sees the world, not The heart sees the world, not is omniscient. Therefore I is omniscient. Therefore I is omniscient. Therefore I I have to believe that there is I have to believe that there is I have to believe that there is omniscient God, who omniscient God, who omniscient God, who sees the world a lot sees the world a lot sees the world a lot more than me. And I more than me. And I more than me. And I I trust His ways. I trust His ways. I trust His ways. more than your own. And I more than your own. And I more than your own. And I I think I always I think I always I think I always I'm going back to that. I'm going back to that. I'm going back to that. who often wrote about it who often wrote about it who often wrote about it in his book "1000 in his book "1000 in his book "1000 gifts. God always gifts. God always gifts. God always good, and always me good, and always me good, and always me love. These two things love. These two things love. These two things true. But I think true. But I think true. But I think that in grief, loss, that in grief, loss, that in grief, loss, unexpected unexpected unexpected detours and turns detours and turns detours and turns on the road for the last on the road for the last on the road for the last 15 years, I think 15 years, I think 15 years, I think moved from that moved from that moved from that God is always good, to God is always good, to God is always good, to that it is even that it is even that it is even something more. He something more. He something more. He good. He really is good. He really is good. He really is good father Abba. AND good father Abba. AND good father Abba. AND this word "good", this word "good", this word "good", etymology of the word " etymology of the word " "good" means "this

"good" means "this "good" means "this "kind" and "this is the king." He is "kind" and "this is the king." He is "kind" and "this is the king." He is both those and others. He- both those and others. He- Lord of lords, King of kings. Lord of lords, King of kings. But he is also mine. But he is also mine. relative who adopted relative who adopted relative who adopted He hugged me. And I He hugged me. And I He hugged me. And I I think I've moved on. I think I've moved on. I think I've moved on. from the fact that he from the fact that he from the fact that he just a good God, to just a good God, to just a good God, to that he is loving that he is loving that he is loving the father who invites the father who invites the father who invites me to loyalty and me to loyalty and me to loyalty and devotion to him. And I devotion to him. And I devotion to him. And I I fail and I fail and I fail and falling again and again falling again and again . He is faithful in his . He is faithful in his . He is faithful in his love for me. And I love for me. And I love for me. And I I can trust him. I can trust him. I can trust him. in the middle of the deep in the middle of the deep in the middle of the deep losses and stories that I losses and stories that I losses and stories that I I will do everything to I will do everything to I will do everything to change this. Its change this. Its change this. Its love is unchanging. IN love is unchanging. IN love is unchanging. IN I don't have another one. I don't have another one. I don't have another one. harbors where you can harbors where you can harbors where you can to escape. to escape. to escape. Um, well, this nugget Um, well, this nugget Um, well, this nugget not very much at all not very much at all not very much at all spiritual. Uh, I'm very spiritual. Uh, I'm very spiritual. Uh, I'm very I agree with Peter. I agree with Peter. I agree with Peter. in this story where everyone in this story where everyone in this story where everyone melt, and Jesus says: " melt, and Jesus says: " "Are you going to leave me too?" "Are you going to leave me too?" "Are you going to leave me too?" And Peter says: "Where are you going?" And Peter says: "Where are you going?" And Peter says: "Where are you going?" "Should we go yet?" IN "Should we go yet?" IN "Should we go yet?" IN You have words. You have words. You have words. I agree with you on I agree with you on I agree with you on this. this. this. So I find out for So I find out for So I find out for myself, which often myself, which often myself, which often I talk to people, I talk to people, I talk to people, including pastors, including pastors, including pastors, who are just very sincere, who are just very sincere, who are just very sincere, they have no doubts they have no doubts they have no doubts and questions, and for them and questions, and for them and questions, and for them Everything is clear. And, uh, Everything is clear. And, uh, Everything is clear. And, uh, I like it.

I like it. I like it. I like this. I like this. I like this. hear. I would like to be hear. I would like to be hear. I would like to be more like this. I have more like this. I have more like this. I have a lot of questions. I have a lot of questions. I have a lot of questions. I have all sorts of doubts. I, all sorts of doubts. I, all sorts of doubts. I, you know, uh, it's just you know, uh, it's just you know, uh, it's just the reality of my the reality of my the reality of my mind. However, uh, in mind. However, uh, in mind. However, uh, in I have this one life. I have this one life. I have this one life. I have something with him. I have something with him. I have something with him. make. Uh, and when I make. Uh, and when I make. Uh, and when I I'm thinking about it, uh, I'm thinking about it, uh, I'm thinking about it, uh, Okay, here's Jesus. Here Okay, here's Jesus. Here Okay, here's Jesus. Here his understanding his understanding his understanding the existence of that the existence of that the existence of that okay, what's not, and okay, what's not, and okay, what's not, and the nature of reality. the nature of reality. the nature of reality. If I hadn't gone to If I hadn't gone to If I hadn't gone to this direction, who this direction, who this direction, who number two? Which number two? Which number two? Which second best second best second best version? Who, who is this? version? Who, who is this? version? Who, who is this? man? What kind of movement? man? What kind of movement? You know, there just isn't. You know, there just isn't. another option another option another option life. And I would say that life. And I would say that life. And I would say that moments when I moments when I moments when I I feel the deepest I feel the deepest I feel the deepest pain is moments, pain is moments, pain is moments, when is it for me when is it for me when is it for me most understandable. most understandable. most understandable. That's good, John. That's good, John. That's good, John. Yes, I am a guy for Yes, I am a guy for Yes, I am a guy for John 6. I think that John 6. I think that John 6. I think that That's all. Well, to whom else, That's all. Well, to whom else, That's all. Well, to whom else, Where else will I go? What else am I? Where else will I go? What else am I? Where else will I go? What else am I? will I do? And mine will I do? And mine will I do? And mine the answer to this was the answer to this was the answer to this was would be like this: I almost would be like this: I almost would be like this: I almost sure that would be sure that would be sure that would be existentialist existentialist existentialist or a nihilist. As if or a nihilist. As if or a nihilist. As if I would be I would be I would be worthless. This is me.

worthless. This is me. worthless. This is me. sincerely tempted to sincerely tempted to sincerely tempted to early 20s early 20s early 20s years, I agreed years, I agreed years, I agreed with such a philosophical with such a philosophical with such a philosophical a school of death, a school of death, a school of death, saying: yes, this is one of saying: yes, this is one of saying: yes, this is one of my favorites my favorites my favorites biblical books, if biblical books, if biblical books, if no, and I know that it is no, and I know that it is no, and I know that it is actually not actually not actually not central for central for central for Gospel, but I Gospel, but I Gospel, but I I just think that this I just think that this I just think that this that's so amazing that's so amazing that's so amazing Ecclesiast. As if everything Ecclesiast. As if everything Ecclesiast. As if everything This is nonsense. As if this This is nonsense. As if this This is nonsense. As if this nihilism. And I think, nihilism. And I think, nihilism. And I think, that I would be there, but that I would be there, but that I would be there, but What hope does this give? No. AND What hope does this give? No. AND What hope does this give? No. AND I still resonate with these I still resonate with these I still resonate with these the most truthful the most truthful the most truthful with the words that I once with the words that I once ever read in your ever read in your ever read in your life. And it seems to me life. And it seems to me life. And it seems to me it was too much it was too much it was too much communication experience communication experience communication experience with God. But in others with God. But in others with God. But in others days I thought: yes, well, days I thought: yes, well, days I thought: yes, well, Where else will I go? Or Where else will I go? Or Where else will I go? Or Do you know where you would be? Do you know where you would be? Do you know where you would be? found themselves spiritually, found themselves spiritually, found themselves spiritually, if there weren't if there weren't if there weren't Christian? Were there Christian? Were there Christian? Were there Would you be a nation? Rich Rich Would you be a nation? Rich Rich Would you be a nation? Rich Rich Mao many years ago Mao many years ago Mao many years ago taught excellent taught excellent taught excellent courses about worldview, courses about worldview, courses about worldview, not about apologetics, not about apologetics, not about apologetics, where they go wrong, where they go wrong, where they go wrong, but where are they but where are they but where are they agree with agree with agree with Christianity? Why? Christianity? Why? Christianity? Why? we can from them we can from them we can from them to learn? And therefore, everything to learn? And therefore, everything : from occultism to : from occultism to : from occultism to monism and new age, monism and new age, monism and new age, uh, and he said that uh, and he said that uh, and he said that we all have a certain we all have a certain we all have a certain position for position for position for default, that default, that default, that if I hadn't been if I hadn't been if I hadn't been Christian, then this Christian, then this Christian, then this would make sense to me.

would make sense to me. would make sense to me. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I would be just like you. And I would be just like you. . Uh, neism, uh, that . Uh, neism, uh, that . Uh, neism, uh, that just atoms, simple just atoms, simple just atoms, simple particles. That's all. THERE ARE- particles. That's all. THERE ARE- Well, that was all. Well, that was all. Well, that was all. accident. When we accident. When we accident. When we we die, everything disappears we die, everything disappears . Uh, what if I wasn't there? . Uh, what if I wasn't there? . Uh, what if I wasn't there? Christian, it was Christian, it was Christian, it was would be the second, uh, would be the second, uh, would be the second, uh, most likely most likely most likely option for me. option for me. The difficulty lies in The difficulty lies in because that would mean because that would mean , you know, if , you know, if , you know, if small small small nine-year-old nine-year-old nine-year-old a girl who is dying a girl who is dying a girl who is dying from cancer, told her: from cancer, told her: from cancer, told her: “Yes, you will die, that’s all. “Yes, you will die, that’s all. “Yes, you will die, that’s all. There is no hope. Uh, you There is no hope. Uh, you There is no hope. Uh, you just lost just lost just lost space lottery. space lottery. space lottery. Your life has no Your life has no Your life has no meaning. Uh, meaning. Uh, meaning. Uh, and mine too. and mine too. and mine too. And mine too. So this is And mine too. So this is And mine too. So this is means to say means to say means to say to people who don't have to people who don't have to people who don't have reasons not to fall into reasons not to fall into reasons not to fall into despair. This would mean despair. This would mean despair. This would mean tell the little ones tell the little ones tell the little ones children who are not children who are not children who are not reasons not to fall into reasons not to fall into reasons not to fall into despair. And I know that this despair. And I know that this despair. And I know that this wrong. I am not wrong. I am not wrong. I am not I can provide I can provide I can provide mathematical proof mathematical proof , why this is wrong. , why this is wrong. , why this is wrong. But I don't think that's it. But I don't think that's it. But I don't think that's it. wrong. I know, wrong. I know, wrong. I know, that this is wrong.

that this is wrong. that this is wrong. As if it is a form of knowledge. As if it is a form of knowledge. As if it is a form of knowledge. This is not scientific knowledge, This is not scientific knowledge, This is not scientific knowledge, but this, you know, is ours but this, you know, is ours but this, you know, is ours mothers said when we mothers said when we mothers said when we were small: "You were small: "You were small: "You "You know better." And this "You know better." And this "You know better." And this like: "I think there is like: "I think there is like: "I think there is some areas where it some areas where it some areas where it truth. We know in truth. We know in truth. We know in our world from different our world from different our world from different reasons, we don't reasons, we don't reasons, we don't think of it as think of it as think of it as knowledge, but it is there. We knowledge, but it is there. We knowledge, but it is there. We We know better. And I know We know better. And I know what does this mean what does this mean what does this mean to accept despair or to accept despair or to accept despair or to advise despair." to advise despair." to advise despair." wrong. I know wrong. I know wrong. I know it. So, I know that it. So, I know that it. So, I know that nealism is not true nealism is not true . It is invalid. But . It is invalid. But . It is invalid. But that would be what I'm up to that would be what I'm up to that would be what I'm up to would come. would come. would come. Well, one more thing that Well, one more thing that Well, one more thing that we often forget, we often forget, we often forget, this is something that no matter how people this is something that no matter how people this is something that no matter how people asked if God asked if God asked if God so good, why so good, why so good, why Does suffering exist? Does suffering exist? Does suffering exist? This is also a question on This is also a question on This is also a question on which they have to answer which they have to answer which they have to answer atheists, that's also atheists, that's also atheists, that's also question that has question that has question that has answer answer answer existentialism. It existentialism. It existentialism. It question that has question that has question that has answer each answer each answer each a different worldview. AND a different worldview. AND a different worldview. AND there is no good one there is no good one there is no good one answers, except answers, except answers, except suffering, forgiveness suffering, forgiveness suffering, forgiveness and the reconciliation of Christ, and the reconciliation of Christ, and the reconciliation of Christ, which even so, hmm, which even so, hmm, which even so, hmm, it's still hard it's still hard it's still hard to express in words AND to express in words AND to express in words AND wherever you are spiritually, wherever you are spiritually, wherever you are spiritually, if there weren't if there weren't if there weren't Christian?

Christian? Honestly, Carrie, I Honestly, Carrie, I would not have been. I don't think so. would not have been. I don't think so. would not have been. I don't think so. what could what could what could continue further. I continue further. I continue further. I I don't think I could. I don't think I could. I don't think I could. to find life without to find life without to find life without Him. I survived. Him. I survived. Him. I survived. too much suffering and too much suffering and too much suffering and so much pain. I am not so much pain. I am not so much pain. I am not I know where else I can I know where else I can I know where else I can find hope, except find hope, except find hope, except Him. I don't know. And I... Him. I don't know. And I... our, um, younger one our, um, younger one daughter literally has daughter literally has daughter literally has half a heart, and half a heart, and half a heart, and she...Um, someday, if she...Um, someday, if she...Um, someday, if It will be God's will, It will be God's will, It will be God's will, she will need she will need she will need heart transplant. AND heart transplant. AND heart transplant. AND her health status her health status her health status this summer changed, this summer changed, this summer changed, so everything became more, so everything became more, so everything became more, um, fragile. And, um, um, fragile. And, um, um, fragile. And, um, she talked a lot. she talked a lot. she talked a lot. What do you say 11- What do you say 11- a one-year-old child who a one-year-old child who a one-year-old child who says something like: " says something like: " Mom, I have friends, Mom, I have friends, Mom, I have friends, who are afraid of mice and who are afraid of mice and who are afraid of mice and spiders, but I'm afraid spiders, but I'm afraid spiders, but I'm afraid "what it's like to die."

"what it's like to die." "what it's like to die." "But you can "But you can "But you can to go back to that, to go back to that, to go back to that, that the only hope I have that the only hope I have that the only hope I have I have in the world, —this I have in the world, —this I have in the world, —this to take you back to to take you back to to take you back to The Gospel of John The Gospel of John The Gospel of John 11. He who believes in 11. He who believes in 11. He who believes in me, will never die. me, will never die. me, will never die. I am the resurrection and I am the resurrection and I am the resurrection and life. As if there is more, life. As if there is more, life. As if there is more, than what they can than what they can than what they can see our eyes. And I see our eyes. And I see our eyes. And I I want to have a heart, I want to have a heart, I want to have a heart, open to the ways, open to the ways, open to the ways, which Jesus moves, which Jesus moves, which Jesus moves, redeems and redeems and redeems and introduces the Kingdom introduces the Kingdom introduces the Kingdom Oh my God. So, if we Oh my God. So, if we Oh my God. So, if we Let's think about where I would go. Let's think about where I would go. Let's think about where I would go. left? You have the words. left? You have the words. left? You have the words. life. If it life. If it life. If it words are not life, I words are not life, I words are not life, I I don't think I have any. I don't think I have any. I don't think I have any. life. I'm not sure. life. I'm not sure. I really identify. I really identify. yourself with what you yourself with what you yourself with what you they said, and, uh, I they said, and, uh, I they said, and, uh, I wondered, wondered, wondered, would I be without Christ? would I be without Christ? would I be without Christ? just potentially just potentially just potentially succumbed to addiction. succumbed to addiction. succumbed to addiction. Um, I think it was Um, I think it was Um, I think it was reality. Um, but reality. Um, but reality. Um, but besides that, I can besides that, I can besides that, I can just guessing. just guessing. Yes. Well, I really am.

Yes. Well, I really am. I appreciate not only yours I appreciate not only yours I appreciate not only yours friendship, John and, uh, friendship, John and, uh, friendship, John and, uh, Tony meant Tony meant Tony meant this project, and a couple this project, and a couple this project, and a couple years ago she years ago she years ago she said: "I think that said: "I think that said: "I think that this is what I'm going to do this is what I'm going to do this is what I'm going to do do the following do the following do the following once. book, "and how once. book, "and how once. book, "and how it all worked out, it all worked out, it all worked out, quite impressive, because I quite impressive, because I quite impressive, because I several times already several times already several times already told you during told you during told you during the last few the last few the last few months when it months when it months when it it turned out that if it turned out that if it turned out that if you told me two you told me two you told me two years ago: "This is what I years ago: "This is what I years ago: "This is what I I will do it. I am going I will do it. I am going I will do it. I am going to work on to work on to work on the project in full the project in full the project in full free. We him free. We him free. We him we will finance it. All we will finance it. All we will finance it. All the money will go to the money will go to the money will go to charity. I charity. I charity. I I am going to ask. I am going to ask. I am going to ask. several authors several authors several authors New York Times bestsellers New York Times bestsellers New York Times bestsellers to sacrifice their to sacrifice their to sacrifice their services, your time and services, your time and services, your time and original works original works original works free. And I free. And I free. And I I am going to ask. I am going to ask. I am going to ask. John Orberg, Ann John Orberg, Ann John Orberg, Ann Vosamp, Mark Vosamp, Mark Vosamp, Mark Batterson, Jenny Batterson, Jenny Batterson, Jenny Lusko and, um, Rebecca Lusko and, um, Rebecca Lusko and, um, Rebecca Lyons and all these Lyons and all these Lyons and all these to bring people together, to bring people together, to bring people together, and they all gather and they all gather and they all gather to do this, and they all to do this, and they all to do this, and they all will be for this will be for this will be for this affairs. I would just affairs. I would just affairs. I would just said, “Well, good luck. said, “Well, good luck. Good luck. I would like to Good luck. I would like to see how it is see how it is see how it is it turned out, it turned out, it turned out, and it worked out and it worked out wonderful, wonderful wonderful, wonderful in a way. I would like to in a way. I would like to in a way. I would like to know, Anne and John, know, Anne and John, know, Anne and John, Why did you say "yes"?

Why did you say "yes"? ? ? It's just even more It's just even more work for you. Good. work for you. Good. work for you. Good. "Write something." Here "Write something." Here "Write something." Here we...well, we...well, we...well, I remember how we were. I remember how we were. ...I think I was in ...I think I was in ...I think I was in Montana is with you. Here Montana is with you. Here Montana is with you. Here This is where it all began. This is where it all began. This is where it all began. Yes. It seems we were Yes. It seems we were ...you and Tony were on ...you and Tony were on ...you and Tony were on dinners in one dinners in one dinners in one sweet little one sweet little one sweet little one place in Podank, state place in Podank, state place in Podank, state Montana, somewhere in Montana, somewhere in Montana, somewhere in Hamilton. Hamilton. Hamilton. Yes, you shared this, Yes, you shared this, Yes, you shared this, and I thought, "Ah, and I thought, "Ah, Tony, I really think so. Tony, I really think so. What is it like to live in the world? What is it like to live in the world? ". So that was it. ". So that was it. ". So that was it. the easiest "yes" in the world the easiest "yes" in the world . Tony's heart, her . Tony's heart, her . Tony's heart, her vision, the way she vision, the way she vision, the way she thought about thought about thought about structuring this structuring this , it really felt , it really felt , as if it came from , as if it came from , as if it came from The Holy Spirit and little The Holy Spirit and little The Holy Spirit and little to do really to do really to do really transformational transformational transformational good job, no good job, no good job, no simply, well, beautifully simply, well, beautifully simply, well, beautifully to have a powerful influence on to have a powerful influence on to have a powerful influence on souls of people, but also souls of people, but also souls of people, but also be part of the change be part of the change be part of the change people's lives in everything people's lives in everything people's lives in everything world. world. I was sitting there that day. I was sitting there that day. I remember how we I remember how we I remember how we had dinner together and in had dinner together and in had dinner together and in I had this I had this I had this crazy idea, and I crazy idea, and I crazy idea, and I honestly thought: "Well, this honestly thought: "Well, this honestly thought: "Well, this crazy idea." But crazy idea." But crazy idea." But I was somehow I was somehow I was somehow motivated motivated motivated to say it out loud, to say it out loud, to say it out loud, and it's your reaction and it's your reaction and it's your reaction along with Ellie's reaction along with Ellie's reaction , well, she added to me, , well, she added to me, , well, she added to me, you know, even a drop you know, even a drop you know, even a drop confidence that confidence that confidence that even mention it even mention it even mention it Kerry. Uh, you too, Kerry. Uh, you too, Kerry. Uh, you too, of course, there were of course, there were of course, there were skeptically skeptically skeptically set up, but I...

set up, but I... just thought: well, you just thought: well, you just thought: well, you you don't know if you don't you don't know if you don't you don't know if you don't you ask. you ask. Uh, and I think that on Uh, and I think that on at this stage of my at this stage of my at this stage of my journey of faith I was able journey of faith I was able journey of faith I was able extend it with extend it with extend it with with open palms. with open palms. with open palms. And you know, I'll ask And you know, I'll ask And you know, I'll ask several times. Good, several times. Good, several times. Good, God, I beg you. God, I beg you. God, I beg you. several times, and if several times, and if several times, and if people will say "yes", people will say "yes", people will say "yes", then, you know, then we then, you know, then we then, you know, then we let's decide which ones will be let's decide which ones will be let's decide which ones will be next steps. Um, next steps. Um, next steps. Um, but yes, I can't but yes, I can't but yes, I can't enough to thank enough to thank enough to thank to you for your "yes" on to you for your "yes" on to you for your "yes" on beginning, Ann. beginning, Ann. Oh, well, that was obvious. Oh, well, that was obvious. vision, guided vision, guided vision, guided By the Holy Spirit. Fair By the Holy Spirit. Fair By the Holy Spirit. Fair saying, Tony, or saying, Tony, or saying, Tony, or Can you please do a little? Can you please do a little? Can you please do a little? to tell about to tell about to tell about what did you share what did you share what did you share that day in Montana? that day in Montana? Of course. Well, I Of course. Well, I for many for many for many years was captivated years was captivated years was captivated Exit 33 and three Exit 33 and three Exit 33 and three questions that Moses questions that Moses questions that Moses I put it to God, uh, I put it to God, uh, I put it to God, uh, after after after The Israelites rebelled. The Israelites rebelled. . It was an uprising. . It was an uprising. . It was an uprising. the golden calf, and, the golden calf, and, the golden calf, and, you know, in this, uh, in you know, in this, uh, in you know, in this, uh, in this scenario this scenario this scenario Moses was completely Moses was completely Moses was completely angry, uh, angry, uh, angry, uh, you know, angry, you know, angry, you know, angry, emotional, emotional, emotional, stunned, but stunned, but stunned, but he relied on he relied on he relied on God. He is not God. He is not God. He is not retreated. He retreated. He retreated. He bent over. He was looking for bent over. He was looking for bent over. He was looking for God and asked them God and asked them God and asked them Teach me Your Teach me Your Teach me Your ways. Uh, let me.

ways. Uh, let me. ways. Uh, let me. we should stay in we should stay in we should stay in Your presence and Your presence and Your presence and show me yours show me yours show me yours glory. And I thought that glory. And I thought that glory. And I thought that these three are so powerful these three are so powerful these three are so powerful and, um, insightful and, um, insightful and, um, insightful questions that really questions that really questions that really honestly show the condition honestly show the condition honestly show the condition the heart of Moses. Moses the heart of Moses. Moses the heart of Moses. Moses had personal physical had personal physical had personal physical suffering, emotional suffering, emotional suffering, emotional suffering, but suffering, but suffering, but Moses also simply Moses also simply Moses also simply sought God. So I, um, sought God. So I, um, sought God. So I, um, I just thought that was it. I just thought that was it. I just thought that was it. it would be great it would be great it would be great framing for framing for framing for books about how books about how books about how to seek God in times, to seek God in times, to seek God in times, you know, personal you know, personal you know, personal suffering. Uh, and this, suffering. Uh, and this, suffering. Uh, and this, maybe it would be maybe it would be maybe it would be springboard for people, springboard for people, springboard for people, to speak or to speak or to speak or write about what they write about what they write about what they learned about God. I learned about God. I learned about God. I I mean, Moses. I mean, Moses. I mean, Moses. sought God, sought sought God, sought sought God, sought more of God. You more of God. You more of God. You you know what you know what you know what other people learned, other people learned, other people learned, when they sought God when they sought God when they sought God in a similar way. So in a similar way. So in a similar way. So it was a springboard that it was a springboard that it was a springboard that very supportive.

very supportive. very supportive. I can't do this. I can't do this. I can't do this. listen and just say listen and just say : "Yes, I mean : "Yes, I mean : "Yes, I mean literally, well, I…” literally, well, I…” literally, well, I…” She returned and She returned and She returned and said: "Uh, on said: "Uh, on said: "Uh, on I will base this on I will base this on I will base this on this," and I'm like, "Ah, I this," and I'm like, "Ah, I this," and I'm like, "Ah, I "went to seminary." "went to seminary." "went to seminary." I'm like, "It's okay, I'm like, "It's okay, I'm like, "It's okay, but you have but you have but you have biblical ex biblical ex biblical ex Jesus". So, I think you Jesus". So, I think you Jesus". So, I think you okay with that okay with that okay with that managed, and she managed, and she managed, and she understands it as if understands it as if understands it as if you are trying to be you are trying to be you are trying to be supportive supportive supportive a man who is not a man who is not a man who is not understands, could not understands, could not understands, could not or not wanted to Um no, this is or not wanted to Um no, this is or not wanted to Um no, this is perfectly. I just perfectly. I just perfectly. I just amazed by how it is amazed by how it is amazed by how it is Everything worked out. John, and Everything worked out. John, and Everything worked out. John, and you? I know you don't. you? I know you don't. you? I know you don't. there was something to do, and you there was something to do, and you there was something to do, and you was like, "Oh, great was like, "Oh, great was like, "Oh, great activity". activity". activity". It was very simple. It was very simple. It was very simple. Um, let's start with the fact that, Um, let's start with the fact that, Um, let's start with the fact that, uh, the role that you two uh, the role that you two uh, the role that you two played in life played in life played in life grandmother and me, was grandmother and me, was grandmother and me, was very important and very very important and very very important and very really important really important really important a deep journey. You a deep journey. You a deep journey. You was part of was part of was part of a small group where a small group where a small group where we met we met we met monthly during COVID monthly during COVID monthly during COVID and registered, and and registered, and and registered, and this is for our, uh, this is for our, uh, this is for our, uh, health, life and health, life and health, life and peace of mind peace of mind peace of mind it was, uh, very, very it was, uh, very, very it was, uh, very, very deep. Um, by the way, deep. Um, by the way, deep. Um, by the way, she almost walked in she almost walked in she almost walked in here. I don't know if I heard here. I don't know if I heard here. I don't know if I heard you, that there was something there you, that there was something there you, that there was something there like...

like... like... Yes, I don't...Yes, it is Yes, I don't...Yes, it is Yes, I don't...Yes, it is perfectly. She came up. perfectly. She came up. perfectly. She came up. so close to me... so close to me... this little, uh, this little, uh, this little, uh, "do not disturb" sign on "do not disturb" sign on "do not disturb" sign on at the door of my room at the door of my room at the door of my room hotel, so that when I hotel, so that when I hotel, so that when I I'm shooting a video, I had I'm shooting a video, I had I'm shooting a video, I had hang it on hang it on hang it on door. I thought that her door. I thought that her door. I thought that her was gone all day, was gone all day, was gone all day, so I didn't mention it so I didn't mention it so I didn't mention it tell. She tell. She tell. She I almost came here, I almost came here, I almost came here, so I held her tight so I held her tight so I held her tight I am arming. And, uh, I'm a little I am arming. And, uh, I'm a little I am arming. And, uh, I'm a little didn't bring her here, in didn't bring her here, in didn't bring her here, in podcast. But if podcast. But if podcast. But if Did anyone hear this? Did anyone hear this? Did anyone hear this? a tender moment in a tender moment in a tender moment in Tony's comments, then Tony's comments, then Tony's comments, then it was Nancy who it was Nancy who it was Nancy who slammed the closet slammed the closet my "no" would be my "no" would be great, because I'm not talking about that great, because I'm not talking about that great, because I'm not talking about that told. Um, but this one told. Um, but this one told. Um, but this one part of our part of our part of our relationships, you know, I relationships, you know, I relationships, you know, I just in a huge just in a huge just in a huge I owe you, I owe you, I owe you, which, you know, prompted which, you know, prompted which, you know, prompted would I agree to would I agree to would I agree to whatever. And then whatever. And then whatever. And then heard about this heard about this heard about this specific project... specific project... Tony, you are a person who, Tony, you are a person who, Tony, you are a person who, in my experience, no in my experience, no in my experience, no has cunning. Ago, has cunning. Ago, has cunning. Ago, when you contact when you contact when you contact please, it please, it please, it sounds very...er, in sounds very...er, in sounds very...er, in There is a certain purity in it. There is a certain purity in it. There is a certain purity in it. and freedom. Uh, and freedom. Uh, and freedom. Uh, it seems that behind this it seems that behind this it seems that behind this never stands never stands never stands agenda. It agenda. It agenda. It just like that. And this is very just like that. And this is very ...uh, attractive. AND ...uh, attractive. AND ...uh, attractive. AND then the project itself was then the project itself was then the project itself was wonderful...and wonderful...and wonderful...and it felt like...uh, it felt like...uh, it felt like...uh, this is a topic about which, uh, this is a topic about which, uh, this is a topic about which, uh, need to write need to write need to write words. Uh, and then what?

words. Uh, and then what? words. Uh, and then what? this will be beneficial this will be beneficial this will be beneficial Compassion International. Um, we Compassion International. Um, we Compassion International. Um, we sponsor a child sponsor a child sponsor a child through compassion. We through compassion. We through compassion. We we support we support we support compassion. Besides, compassion. Besides, compassion. Besides, uh, Jimmy Maya, uh, Jimmy Maya, uh, Jimmy Maya, their leader, very their leader, very their leader, very good friend. I will be with good friend. I will be with good friend. I will be with by them, uh, through by them, uh, through by them, uh, through month on annual month on annual month on annual meeting. So, you know, meeting. So, you know, meeting. So, you know, the proceeds can be the proceeds can be the proceeds can be it would be a good idea to it would be a good idea to it would be a good idea to to try to free to try to free to try to free children around the world children around the world children around the world from poverty in the name of from poverty in the name of from poverty in the name of Jesus. It's hard to say " Jesus. It's hard to say " No". No". No". Absolutely true. Absolutely true. Absolutely true. Yes. Tony came to Yes. Tony came to Yes. Tony came to I am a few years old. I am a few years old. I am a few years old. so, and you said: " so, and you said: " "You know what?" I want "You know what?" I want "You know what?" I want donate 100,000 donate 100,000 donate 100,000 dollars for this cause, dollars for this cause, dollars for this cause, which I care about. which I care about. which I care about. We love what We love what We love what does Compassion, and Convoy. I does Compassion, and Convoy. I does Compassion, and Convoy. I like this: "We love like this: "We love like this: "We love to give". He said, to give". He said, to give". He said, donation is that donation is that donation is that that we really like that we really like that we really like I like it, but I I like it, but I I like it, but I like this: "You know, we like this: "You know, we like this: "You know, we we support our we support our we support our the local church and the local church and the local church and other things." So, like, other things." So, like, other things." So, like, This is a big request. AND This is a big request. AND This is a big request. AND then when this then when this then when this the project came together, the project came together, the project came together, no one takes any no one takes any no one takes any fees, royalties or fees, royalties or fees, royalties or something like that. AND something like that. AND something like that. AND are you working on it are you working on it are you working on it free. Therefore, free. Therefore, free. Therefore, all profit all profit all profit distributed distributed distributed equally between " equally between " With sympathy" and " With sympathy" and " "Convoy of Hope", which "Convoy of Hope", which "Convoy of Hope", which perform an incredible perform an incredible perform an incredible work all over work all over work all over world. So people world. So people world. So people can learn about can learn about can learn about this is more. Tony, this is more. Tony, this is more. Tony, tell us how people tell us how people tell us how people can join in can join in can join in "Honesty before "Honesty before "Honesty before "God"? Um, you "God"? Um, you "God"? Um, you do you see it as do you see it as do you see it as gift book, gift book, gift book, which can be bought for which can be bought for which can be bought for of your team. It of your team. It of your team. It could be great could be great could be great Christmas gift, Christmas gift, Christmas gift, birthday, etc.

birthday, etc. birthday, etc. But this will tell us But this will tell us But this will tell us a little more about myself a little more about myself a little more about myself project because it project because it project because it finalized finalized finalized in the book. in the book. in the book. Of course. Of course. Of course. Yes. The book will be released on the 20th. Yes. The book will be released on the 20th. Yes. The book will be released on the 20th. October October October 2026. She is in 2026. She is in we are sold on honest we are sold on honest togodbook.com. togodbook.com. Not in another online store, like her store, like her store, like her is it called? is it called? is it called? Starts at Starts at Starts at the letter "A". So the letter "A". So the letter "A". So first she is there first she is there first she is there unavailable. unavailable. unavailable. Yes, actually she is. Yes, actually she is. Yes, actually she is. will be unavailable there will be unavailable there will be unavailable there only after launch. only after launch. Hmm, but, and, but, Hmm, but, and, but, throughout the time throughout the time throughout the time we will have a solid we will have a solid we will have a solid the cover of the book, which the cover of the book, which the cover of the book, which is a wonderful book, is a wonderful book, is a wonderful book, available on the website available on the website available on the website honest to Godbook.com, because honest to Godbook.com, because honest to Godbook.com, because we really want we really want we really want optimize optimize optimize income that income that income that can be passed on to our can be passed on to our can be passed on to our charitable charitable charitable partners, and partners, and this is a way to earn money this is a way to earn money more money from more money from more money from every book is not for every book is not for every book is not for us or the authors, but for us or the authors, but for us or the authors, but for charitable purposes. charitable purposes. charitable purposes. Yes. And, obviously, if Yes. And, obviously, if Yes. And, obviously, if Do you know anything about Do you know anything about Do you know anything about book economics, book economics, book economics, retailers retailers retailers get a big get a big get a big piece.

piece. piece. They do it. Yes. They do it. Yes. And it was ours And it was ours a roundabout way, and this a roundabout way, and this a roundabout way, and this our invitation for our invitation for our invitation for people who would like to people who would like to people who would like to buy a copy buy a copy buy a copy books. If you can books. If you can books. If you can go to the website, it's go to the website, it's go to the website, it's That would be great. Um, we That would be great. Um, we That would be great. Um, we also thinking about also thinking about also thinking about church leaders, church leaders, church leaders, because we got because we got because we got feedback from our feedback from our feedback from our early reader groups, early reader groups, early reader groups, what, uh, church what, uh, church what, uh, church I need this book. Um, I need this book. Um, I need this book. Um, people told us that people told us that people told us that they consider her they consider her they consider her authentic and authentic and authentic and genuine, and, uh, I genuine, and, uh, I genuine, and, uh, I I think we finally I think we finally I think we finally heard that this is a book, heard that this is a book, heard that this is a book, which tells about which tells about which tells about loss and grief, uh, loss and grief, uh, loss and grief, uh, but she avoids but she avoids but she avoids banalities, uh, and, banalities, uh, and, banalities, uh, and, therefore, we received therefore, we received therefore, we received reviews, what is it reviews, what is it reviews, what is it extremely useful extremely useful extremely useful a book that helps a book that helps a book that helps someone to experience grief. someone to experience grief. Uh, and so we Uh, and so we developed a 4-week developed a 4-week developed a 4-week a series that the church a series that the church a series that the church can hold for can hold for can hold for your people, uh, if your people, uh, if your people, uh, if they have people, they have people, they have people, your own messages, your own messages, your own messages, use use use notes. Uh, this is notes. Uh, this is notes. Uh, this is preached in preached in preached in several churches that several churches that several churches that this was tested. this was tested. this was tested. Yes. Yes. Yes. And that's why we have field And that's why we have field And that's why we have field notes for you. And, uh notes for you. And, uh , I think the manuscripts , I think the manuscripts , I think the manuscripts almost ready for almost ready for almost ready for exit, right?

exit, right? exit, right? Yes. These are, uh, yes, full Yes. These are, uh, yes, full Yes. These are, uh, yes, full sermon plans, sermon plans, sermon plans, travel plans. So travel plans. So travel plans. So instead of instead of instead of to plagiarize to plagiarize to plagiarize John's sermons John's sermons John's sermons Orberg, you can Orberg, you can Orberg, you can plagiarize it. plagiarize it. plagiarize it. Okay, great. Good Okay, great. Good Okay, great. Good know. know. know. So, considering So, considering So, considering the reason, it would be the reason, it would be the reason, it would be a sin for anyone, a sin for anyone, a sin for anyone, Who is listening to us now? Who is listening to us now? Who is listening to us now? don't buy a copy of this don't buy a copy of this don't buy a copy of this books or more. books or more. books or more. This is very well said. This is very well said. . Very well said. . Very well said. . Very well said. And not spiritual And not spiritual And not spiritual violence, John. It violence, John. It violence, John. It no...That's great. no...That's great. no...That's great. Excellent Excellent Excellent formulation. formulation. formulation. Spiritual reality. Spiritual reality. Spiritual reality. Yes, Yes, That was a bot saying that. That was a bot saying that. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. No, Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. No, Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. No, This is great. So, uh, This is great. So, uh, This is great. So, uh, in fairness to Bob. in fairness to Bob. in fairness to Bob. Fair enough to Bob. Fair enough to Bob. Fair enough to Bob. Honest to God.com. AT, Honest to God.com. AT, Honest to God.com. AT, My God. How...Why are you My God. How...Why are you My God. How...Why are you married me? Not married me? Not married me? Not I remember. I remember. I remember. Many important Many important Many important reasons. reasons. reasons. OK. Honestly, OK. Honestly, OK. Honestly, togodbook.com is the place where togodbook.com is the place where togodbook.com is the place where you can find everything, you can find everything, you can find everything, including bonuses, and including bonuses, and including bonuses, and eventually it will appear eventually it will appear eventually it will appear in retail channels. in retail channels. in retail channels. But if you want But if you want But if you want to get acquainted with to get acquainted with to get acquainted with book before, this book before, this book before, this chance, if you want, chance, if you want, chance, if you want, if you are looking for a series if you are looking for a series if you are looking for a series sermons, so that sermons, so that sermons, so that to start a new year, to start a new year, to start a new year, and this year, uh, God and this year, uh, God and this year, uh, God and suffering is and suffering is and suffering is an inexhaustible topic, and in an inexhaustible topic, and in an inexhaustible topic, and in The book has a wonderful The book has a wonderful The book has a wonderful Exesus with Terry Lee Exesus with Terry Lee Exesus with Terry Lee Cobblestone. Who else is Cobblestone. Who else is Cobblestone. Who else is authors, uh, which authors, uh, which authors, uh, which also did their also did their also did their contribution?

contribution? contribution? If you haven't remembered, uh- If you haven't remembered, uh- uh, Jenny Leko, yeah, uh, uh, Jenny Leko, yeah, uh, uh, Jenny Leko, yeah, uh, Nikki and Pippa Gumball Nikki and Pippa Gumball . Uh, there's Amy Gell, . Uh, there's Amy Gell, . Uh, there's Amy Gell, Stacey Wood. I...I am now Stacey Wood. I...I am now Stacey Wood. I...I am now I'm going to pull in. I'm going to pull in. I'm going to pull in. myself in trouble show, I myself in trouble show, I myself in trouble show, I I know that Mark Clark, I know that Mark Clark, I know that Mark Clark, my friend Mark my friend Mark my friend Mark Clark, wrote to Ana Clark, wrote to Ana Clark, wrote to Ana Kanye, and I hope Kanye, and I hope Kanye, and I hope What did I say correctly? What did I say correctly? . Uh, and Sean C. So yes, . Uh, and Sean C. So yes, . Uh, and Sean C. So yes, there are there are there are many different many different many different generations, different generations, different generations, different genres, and all, uh, genres, and all, uh, genres, and all, uh, working together. It working together. It working together. It It will be great. And Anne and It will be great. And Anne and It will be great. And Anne and John, thank you very much for John, thank you very much for John, thank you very much for your friendship, as well as your friendship, as well as your friendship, as well as by by a truly sincere conversation. a truly sincere conversation. As I already said on As I already said on As I already said on beginning, if we all beginning, if we all beginning, if we all had dinner together, I had dinner together, I had dinner together, I I just would like to I just would like to I just would like to invite listeners invite listeners invite listeners to this table. And I to this table. And I to this table. And I I feel that we have I feel that we have I feel that we have was truly wonderful, was truly wonderful, was truly wonderful, frank conversation frank conversation frank conversation about the questions that about the questions that about the questions that there are no answers, and there are no answers, and there are no answers, and that was helpful. So that was helpful. So that was helpful. So I sincerely thank you all. I sincerely thank you all. I sincerely thank you all. Thank you. And, uh, a lot Thank you. And, uh, a lot Thank you. And, uh, a lot blessings on this blessings on this blessings on this project. Thank you for project. Thank you for project. Thank you for the opportunity to be his the opportunity to be his the opportunity to be his part. part. part. Yes, thank you both.

Yes, thank you both. Yes, thank you both. God be with you all. God be with you all. God be with you all. Yes, I wonder who you would be. Yes, I wonder who you would be. Yes, I wonder who you would be. were, if not were were, if not were were, if not were Christian. It Christian. It Christian. It really interesting really interesting really interesting question. So, how do I question. So, how do I question. So, how do I I already said, uh, before, I already said, uh, before, I already said, uh, before, Ann and John—only Ann and John—only Ann and John—only two of those who did two of those who did two of those who did your contribution. Terry your contribution. Terry your contribution. Terry Cobble did it all Cobble did it all Cobble did it all biblical commentaries. biblical commentaries. biblical commentaries. This is a fascinating book. This is a fascinating book. This is a fascinating book. I hope you I hope you I hope you you will buy it. Come in. you will buy it. Come in. you will buy it. Come in. at honesttogodbook.com. at honesttogodbook.com. at honesttogodbook.com. Maybe buy Maybe buy Maybe buy a few, share a few, share a few, share them with their own them with their own them with their own team, perhaps, team, perhaps, team, perhaps, make a series make a series make a series sermons. Everything is there, sermons. Everything is there, sermons. Everything is there, and this is exclusive to and this is exclusive to and this is exclusive to honesttogodbook.com. So you honesttogodbook.com. So you honesttogodbook.com. So you you can get you can get you can get notes on everything, notes on everything, notes on everything, What were we talking about? IN What were we talking about? IN What were we talking about? IN John was interesting. John was interesting. John was interesting. a book similar to "How a book similar to "How a book similar to "How to become a friend, to become a friend, to become a friend, written a thousand written a thousand written a thousand years ago. We years ago. We years ago. We we publish links we publish links we publish links on such things in on such things in on such things in in the show notes. That in the show notes. That in the show notes. That to get it, to get it, to get it, go to go to go to art academy art academy art academy leadership. You can leadership. You can leadership. You can create create create free free free account. account. account. Get notes for Get notes for Get notes for show right there for show right there for show right there for this and any this and any this and any another episode. AND another episode. AND another episode. AND if you liked it if you liked it if you liked it this episode, this episode, this episode, necessarily necessarily necessarily click " click " Subscribe" or " Subscribe" or " Subscribe, wherever you are Subscribe, wherever you are Subscribe, wherever you are no matter where you look no matter where you look no matter where you look didn't listen. And if this didn't listen. And if this didn't listen. And if this it was really good, it was really good, it was really good, share this with share this with share this with friend, send friend, send friend, send link to him. Further link to him. Further link to him. Further on Jimmy's podcast on Jimmy's podcast on Jimmy's podcast Miato, about whom we Miato, about whom we Miato, about whom we just talking, Andrew just talking, Andrew just talking, Andrew Hopper, Chuck DeGraw, Ron Hopper, Chuck DeGraw, Ron Hopper, Chuck DeGraw, Ron Johnson, Andy Stanley Johnson, Andy Stanley Johnson, Andy Stanley and many others. Sincerely and many others. Sincerely and many others. Sincerely Thank you for your attention, and I Thank you for your attention, and I Thank you for your attention, and I I hope that on I hope that on I hope that on on a personal level this on a personal level this on a personal level this Did the episode help you?

Did the episode help you? Did the episode help you? to determine and to determine and to determine and overcome a barrier overcome a barrier overcome a barrier the growth with which you the growth with which you the growth with which you you encounter. Perhaps, you encounter. Perhaps, you encounter. Perhaps, this time spiritual.