Outfoxed Podcast by Hunter.io | Ep 17 Paul David “ How to stay human in the face of AI”

This is Outfoxed, the podcast brought This is Outfoxed, the podcast brought to you by hunter.io, the to you by hunter.io, the to you by hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead generation platform trusted B2B lead generation platform trusted B2B lead generation platform built for all professionals. built for all professionals. built for all professionals. Prepare yourself for a lack of manuals, Prepare yourself for a lack of manuals, Prepare yourself for a lack of manuals, postures, and egos. This is a program postures, and egos. This is a program postures, and egos. This is a program for builders, not for theorists. for builders, not for theorists. for builders, not for theorists. Let's go. Hello Let's go. Hello Let's go. Hello and welcome to another episode of and welcome to another episode of and welcome to another episode of Outfoxed. I'm Matt Thorpe from Hunter Outfoxed. I'm Matt Thorpe from Hunter . I'm excited to be here and very . I'm excited to be here and very . I'm excited to be here and very excited to have this conversation with excited to have this conversation with excited to have this conversation with you all. Paul Davis is with me. Paul you all. Paul Davis is with me. Paul you all. Paul Davis is with me. Paul is the co-founder and CEO of Literal Humans, is the co-founder and CEO of Literal Humans, is the co-founder and CEO of Literal Humans, a London-based digital marketing agency a London-based digital marketing agency a London-based digital marketing agency that has helped companies that has helped companies that has helped companies like Wise, Ora, Chipper Cash, and Oyster like Wise, Ora, Chipper Cash, and Oyster like Wise, Ora, Chipper Cash, and Oyster grow without sacrificing the human touch. grow without sacrificing the human touch. Interestingly, and this is one of the things Interestingly, and this is one of the things I'm eager to I'm eager to I'm eager to discuss with him, prior to his discuss with him, prior to his discuss with him, prior to his time at the agency, Paul was in the time at the agency, Paul was in the New York City public education system, both as a New York City public education system, both as a teacher, school leader, and architect teacher, school leader, and architect teacher, school leader, and architect of a new concept for a public of a new concept for a public of a new concept for a public high school in the largest district in the United States high school in the largest district in the United States high school in the largest district in the United States . So, I'm eager . So, I'm eager . So, I'm eager to hear what he has to say.

to hear what he has to say. to hear what he has to say. Paul earned a doctorate in Paul earned a doctorate in Paul earned a doctorate in educational leadership from Harvard, then educational leadership from Harvard, then educational leadership from Harvard, then focused on what he does now with writing focused on what he does now with writing , journalism, and content, which led , journalism, and content, which led , journalism, and content, which led to the launch of Literal Humans right to the launch of Literal Humans right to the launch of Literal Humans right around the time of the pandemic, I think. Literal around the time of the pandemic, I think. Literal around the time of the pandemic, I think. Literal Humans is now a B Corp with a Humans is now a B Corp with a Humans is now a B Corp with a four-day work week, and four-day work week, and four-day work week, and Paul also hosts a podcast Paul also hosts a podcast Paul also hosts a podcast called Tech Can't Say This, which seems called Tech Can't Say This, which seems called Tech Can't Say This, which seems particularly valuable right now. particularly valuable right now. particularly valuable right now. So, Paul, I'm glad to have you So, Paul, I'm glad to have you So, Paul, I'm glad to have you here. I can't wait to hear here. I can't wait to hear here. I can't wait to hear those stories, and welcome to those stories, and welcome to those stories, and welcome to Outfoxed. Outfoxed. Outfoxed. Yes, thank you for having me. Thanks Yes, thank you for having me. Thanks , man. , man. , man. Before we get into the details that I Before we get into the details that I Before we get into the details that I know Outfoxed's audience will know Outfoxed's audience will know Outfoxed's audience will love to hear, help me understand what love to hear, help me understand what love to hear, help me understand what 's going on here. Tell me what 's going on here. Tell me what 's going on here. Tell me what led you from a deep understanding of led you from a deep understanding of led you from a deep understanding of education and the educational field to education and the educational field to education and the educational field to doing truly interesting things doing truly interesting things doing truly interesting things for an agency that, as far as I know for an agency that, as far as I know , isn't a typical career path. , isn't a typical career path. , isn't a typical career path. Yes, it's interesting, and as I Yes, it's interesting, and as I Yes, it's interesting, and as I work in this space, I realize and kind of work in this space, I realize and kind of work in this space, I realize and kind of undo the layers of connection that undo the layers of connection that undo the layers of connection that I, you know, maybe I, you know, maybe I, you know, maybe implicitly knew existed, but didn't implicitly knew existed, but didn't implicitly knew existed, but didn't bring to light. In other words, the bring to light. In other words, the bring to light. In other words, the functional path was essentially to work functional path was essentially to work functional path was essentially to work in education. I ended up as an in education. I ended up as an in education. I ended up as an executive director for non- executive director for non- executive director for non- profit organizations, raising funds, profit organizations, raising funds, profit organizations, raising funds, selling, and writing a lot. And selling, and writing a lot. And selling, and writing a lot. And that kind of led me to write about that kind of led me to write about that kind of led me to write about educational philanthropy for a educational philanthropy for a educational philanthropy for a company called Inside Philanthropy. I company called Inside Philanthropy. I company called Inside Philanthropy. I really enjoyed writing and really enjoyed writing and really enjoyed writing and interviewing and kind of, you know, interviewing and kind of, you know, interviewing and kind of, you know, service journalism. And then that service journalism. And then that service journalism. And then that led me to kind of come out and say, "Hey, led me to kind of come out and say, "Hey, led me to kind of come out and say, "Hey, I really enjoy writing on the

I really enjoy writing on the I really enjoy writing on the internet and producing content, making the internet and producing content, making the internet and producing content, making the internet a more interesting and internet a more interesting and internet a more interesting and informative place, getting paid for it, having a informative place, getting paid for it, having a informative place, getting paid for it, having a more flexible location, traveling." And then more flexible location, traveling." And then more flexible location, traveling." And then I did that and kind of pressed the button I did that and kind of pressed the button , so to speak. I started working , so to speak. I started working , so to speak. I started working for another agency in the United States for another agency in the United States for another agency in the United States that served B2B SaaS, I was hired that served B2B SaaS, I was hired that served B2B SaaS, I was hired by TransferWise, the by TransferWise, the by TransferWise, the Wise content strategy team, and it Wise content strategy team, and it Wise content strategy team, and it was at the beginning of that. And that was at the beginning of that. And that was at the beginning of that. And that kind of led me to focus on technology kind of led me to focus on technology kind of led me to focus on technology for startups and non- for startups and non- for startups and non- profit organizations. And basically, to give them the profit organizations. And basically, to give them the profit organizations. And basically, to give them the growth partner that I wish I'd had growth partner that I wish I'd had growth partner that I wish I'd had when I was running when I was running when I was running charities in the United States charities in the United States charities in the United States . . . That makes sense. Okay, great. Well That makes sense. Okay, great. Well That makes sense. Okay, great. Well thanks. You made it seem obvious, thanks. You made it seem obvious, thanks. You made it seem obvious, as if I were an idiot for not as if I were an idiot for not as if I were an idiot for not realizing it, but no, I love the connection realizing it, but no, I love the connection . Hmm, you know, what was particularly . Hmm, you know, what was particularly . Hmm, you know, what was particularly interesting to me was having children who interesting to me was having children who interesting to me was having children who grew up in public school and felt grew up in public school and felt grew up in public school and felt that the model no longer fit that the model no longer fit that the model no longer fit perfectly into the world. I was perfectly into the world. I was perfectly into the world. I was really interested to see how much really interested to see how much really interested to see how much time and energy you dedicate to time and energy you dedicate to time and energy you dedicate to that specific part of the world. Um, that specific part of the world. Um, that specific part of the world. Um, yes, I understand what you're yes, I understand what you're yes, I understand what you're saying. It certainly seems like it would be saying. It certainly seems like it would be saying. It certainly seems like it would be more fun to teach people the more fun to teach people the more fun to teach people the way you do now.

way you do now. way you do now. Yes, and like one of those you mentioned, Yes, and like one of those you mentioned, Yes, and like one of those you mentioned, the role I had in the the role I had in the the role I had in the New York City Department of Education. New York City Department of Education. New York City Department of Education. It is the largest school district in the United States It is the largest school district in the United States It is the largest school district in the United States . I don't know how many children they . I don't know how many children they . I don't know how many children they have. More than 1.5 million children have. More than 1.5 million children have. More than 1.5 million children are moving now, which is crazy to think are moving now, which is crazy to think are moving now, which is crazy to think about. But, you know, it was the best job I've ever about. But, you know, it was the best job I've ever about. But, you know, it was the best job I've ever had. I was basically a had. I was basically a had. I was basically a school designer, and I was able to go out and school designer, and I was able to go out and school designer, and I was able to go out and meet with families, communities, meet with families, communities, meet with families, communities, and children. And you know, we were working in and children. And you know, we were working in and children. And you know, we were working in this coworking space that was this coworking space that was this coworking space that was really modern and cool, like in Chelsea, really modern and cool, like in Chelsea, really modern and cool, like in Chelsea, and then we took these ideas to the and then we took these ideas to the and then we took these ideas to the market for high school students and market for high school students and market for high school students and we were like, "Wow, we have this idea we were like, "Wow, we have this idea we were like, "Wow, we have this idea for this school, and they say it for this school, and they say it for this school, and they say it 's complete garbage." And it was so 's complete garbage." And it was so 's complete garbage." And it was so rewarding, and rightfully so, because it rewarding, and rightfully so, because it rewarding, and rightfully so, because it just shows how, as adults, we have to sit around just shows how, as adults, we have to sit around just shows how, as adults, we have to sit around and invent these and invent these and invent these things, and not actually build with things, and not actually build with things, and not actually build with people and co-design. Hmm, so people and co-design. Hmm, so people and co-design. Hmm, so we ended up launching three schools in we ended up launching three schools in we ended up launching three schools in Queens and Brooklyn that were focused Queens and Brooklyn that were focused Queens and Brooklyn that were focused on competency-based education, on competency-based education, on competency-based education, mindsets, and skills, and mindsets, and skills, and mindsets, and skills, and frankly, many of the things I frankly, many of the things I frankly, many of the things I find crucial in the age of AI. So, in find crucial in the age of AI. So, in find crucial in the age of AI. So, in a strange way, we were a strange way, we were a strange way, we were ahead of the game, and I'm very proud of ahead of the game, and I'm very proud of ahead of the game, and I'm very proud of that. It was one of the that. It was one of the that. It was one of the proudest moments of my professional career.

proudest moments of my professional career. proudest moments of my professional career. That's amazing. Congratulations. Are these That's amazing. Congratulations. Are these That's amazing. Congratulations. Are these schools still active today? Were they schools still active today? Were they schools still active today? Were they experiments that were experiments that were experiments that were incorporated into the school system? What incorporated into the school system? What incorporated into the school system? What ended up happening there? ended up happening there? ended up happening there? To be honest with you, I mean To be honest with you, I mean , they have institutional inertia, , they have institutional inertia, , they have institutional inertia, man. And that. And then you know there are man. And that. And then you know there are man. And that. And then you know there are these points of light, these moments these points of light, these moments these points of light, these moments of innovation, especially within of innovation, especially within of innovation, especially within a huge bureaucracy like the a huge bureaucracy like the a huge bureaucracy like the Department of Education in New York Department of Education in New York . And then I think they persisted . And then I think they persisted . And then I think they persisted for a while. One of my good friends for a while. One of my good friends for a while. One of my good friends was a director who kind of kept the was a director who kind of kept the was a director who kind of kept the business running, and so, you know, business running, and so, you know, business running, and so, you know, you have people who come in and have a you have people who come in and have a you have people who come in and have a different philosophy, or they've been different philosophy, or they've been different philosophy, or they've been kind of marinated in the system for a kind of marinated in the system for a kind of marinated in the system for a long time, and it's difficult to maintain that long time, and it's difficult to maintain that long time, and it's difficult to maintain that kind of innovation within a system kind of innovation within a system kind of innovation within a system like that. But we like to think that like that. But we like to think that like that. But we like to think that we did, you know, we made some we did, you know, we made some we did, you know, we made some forays. There was forays. There was forays. There was also a spin-off charter school that started. And so there's a also a spin-off charter school that started. And so there's a also a spin-off charter school that started. And so there's a whole movement, I think, in the whole movement, I think, in the whole movement, I think, in the states to move towards states to move towards states to move towards competency-based learning, competency-based learning, competency-based learning, which has more to do with kids which has more to do with kids which has more to do with kids being able to demonstrate their being able to demonstrate their being able to demonstrate their abilities and elect and do more abilities and elect and do more abilities and elect and do more projects and less of this projects and less of this projects and less of this training and elimination testing stuff. So training and elimination testing stuff. So training and elimination testing stuff. So yes, I'm proud of that.

yes, I'm proud of that. yes, I'm proud of that. That is great. Yes, if we could That is great. Yes, if we could That is great. Yes, if we could somehow get to a point where somehow get to a point where somehow get to a point where we were fostering the creativity we were fostering the creativity we were fostering the creativity of young people, instead of stifling it, I think of young people, instead of stifling it, I think of young people, instead of stifling it, I think that would be a very good thing for the that would be a very good thing for the that would be a very good thing for the country, right? Okay. Okay. country, right? Okay. Okay. country, right? Okay. Okay. That is great. I love this because That is great. I love this because That is great. I love this because now the pattern of you kind of now the pattern of you kind of now the pattern of you kind of zigzagging instead of zigzagging zigzagging instead of zigzagging zigzagging instead of zigzagging and trying to maybe focus on and trying to maybe focus on and trying to maybe focus on things in a different way and be an things in a different way and be an things in a different way and be an agent of change makes sense. But agent of change makes sense. But agent of change makes sense. But then, if we enter the realm of reach, which is then, if we enter the realm of reach, which is then, if we enter the realm of reach, which is our world, you said something that I our world, you said something that I our world, you said something that I want to explain to you. You talked want to explain to you. You talked want to explain to you. You talked about the cold reach that needs to be about the cold reach that needs to be about the cold reach that needs to be warmed up. And I think one of the things warmed up. And I think one of the things warmed up. And I think one of the things you added to that is something you added to that is something you added to that is something about offering value or engaging in a about offering value or engaging in a about offering value or engaging in a human way. And I think we'll use your human way. And I think we'll use your human way. And I think we'll use your brand as an indicator here. brand as an indicator here. brand as an indicator here. Literally, Humans is the name for it. Literally, Humans is the name for it. Literally, Humans is the name for it. So, talk to me about your So, talk to me about your So, talk to me about your perspective on this, how you perspective on this, how you perspective on this, how you arrived at this, how you practice it. arrived at this, how you practice it. arrived at this, how you practice it. I would certainly love to hear more about I would certainly love to hear more about I would certainly love to hear more about your thoughts on real, your thoughts on real, your thoughts on real, genuine, and authentic reach. genuine, and authentic reach. genuine, and authentic reach. I mean, I think it starts with, and I know we're going to go into this I mean, I think it starts with, and I know we're going to go into this I mean, I think it starts with, and I know we're going to go into this as a as a as a really good qualification. Hmm, uh, really good qualification. Hmm, uh, really good qualification. Hmm, uh, because I think that with qualification and because I think that with qualification and , and really, um, you know, , and really, um, you know, , and really, um, you know, identifying your true ICP, your identifying your true ICP, your identifying your true ICP, your true IBP or your true IBP or your true IBP or your individual buyer profile, the individual buyer profile, the individual buyer profile, the real purchasing committee, especially if you real purchasing committee, especially if you real purchasing committee, especially if you 're in B2B, you're 're in B2B, you're 're in B2B, you're saving a lot of time for yourself and saving a lot of time for yourself and saving a lot of time for yourself and for other people. So, there's a lot of for other people. So, there's a lot of for other people. So, there's a lot of it, we don't always think of it it, we don't always think of it it, we don't always think of it as part of, like, you as part of, like, you as part of, like, you know, useful outreach, but it is. Hmm, know, useful outreach, but it is. Hmm, know, useful outreach, but it is. Hmm, because if you're talking to because if you're talking to because if you're talking to someone you have nothing in common with, someone you have nothing in common with, someone you have nothing in common with, you can't really

you can't really you can't really share value with each other, share value with each other, share value with each other, so what are we doing? So, so what are we doing? So, so what are we doing? So, I think that's the first step. And I think that's the first step. And I think that's the first step. And so I think, um, so I think, um, so I think, um, cold disclosure is about taking the time to cold disclosure is about taking the time to cold disclosure is about taking the time to understand that individual, that understand that individual, that understand that individual, that human being. I believe that B2B is human being. I believe that B2B is human being. I believe that B2B is actually more emotional and more human actually more emotional and more human actually more emotional and more human than B2C, because it's people's jobs than B2C, because it's people's jobs than B2C, because it's people's jobs that are at stake, their that are at stake, their that are at stake, their professional reputation and their livelihood professional reputation and their livelihood . So, it's really interesting to . So, it's really interesting to . So, it's really interesting to delve deeper into the thinking about this delve deeper into the thinking about this delve deeper into the thinking about this buyer and understand how they're buyer and understand how they're buyer and understand how they're trying to be the best dean of trying to be the best dean of trying to be the best dean of nursing or the best vice president nursing or the best vice president nursing or the best vice president of purchasing within the organization and of purchasing within the organization and of purchasing within the organization and speak that language. So, yes, speak that language. So, yes, speak that language. So, yes, tasks to be done. But it's like tasks to be done. But it's like tasks to be done. But it's like a growth process for that a growth process for that a growth process for that individual human being, and how they can individual human being, and how they can individual human being, and how they can stop engaging with you as a stop engaging with you as a stop engaging with you as a better dean of nursing or a better dean of nursing or a better dean of nursing or a better vice president of purchasing in better vice president of purchasing in better vice president of purchasing in their role and not depend on you. their role and not depend on you. their role and not depend on you. So, it's about thinking about that and So, it's about thinking about that and So, it's about thinking about that and then thinking about fun things. then thinking about fun things. then thinking about fun things. Like, do they like the Philadelphia Like, do they like the Philadelphia Like, do they like the Philadelphia Eagles, or do they have a dog, or Eagles, or do they have a dog, or Eagles, or do they have a dog, or can you send them something in the can you send them something in the can you send them something in the mail? For example, we have a new client mail? For example, we have a new client mail? For example, we have a new client who likes to send comic books. So, who likes to send comic books. So, who likes to send comic books. So, I'm sending him some, you know, I'm sending him some, you know, I'm sending him some, you know, comics and those little, comics and those little, comics and those little, over-the-top hospitality touches; I think they're over-the-top hospitality touches; I think they're over-the-top hospitality touches; I think they're all ways of warming up the relationship. And all ways of warming up the relationship. And all ways of warming up the relationship. And we've seen this work very well for us we've seen this work very well for us we've seen this work very well for us and for our clients.

and for our clients. and for our clients. That is great. This is a level of That is great. This is a level of That is great. This is a level of personalization that goes beyond what personalization that goes beyond what personalization that goes beyond what people normally think about people normally think about people normally think about personalization here. In fact, have personalization here. In fact, have personalization here. In fact, have you found a way to do you found a way to do you found a way to do this at scale, or have you discovered that you need to this at scale, or have you discovered that you need to this at scale, or have you discovered that you need to make more literal and direct contact make more literal and direct contact make more literal and direct contact to achieve this kind of to achieve this kind of to achieve this kind of precision? Like, figuring out precision? Like, figuring out precision? Like, figuring out their interests in comics is pretty their interests in comics is pretty their interests in comics is pretty limited, right? limited, right? limited, right? Yes. Yes, I mean, and there are different Yes. Yes, I mean, and there are different Yes. Yes, I mean, and there are different levels to that based on where they levels to that based on where they levels to that based on where they are in the funnel, so to speak. I think are in the funnel, so to speak. I think are in the funnel, so to speak. I think scale is a very scale is a very scale is a very funny word. Like, if you do it that funny word. Like, if you do it that funny word. Like, if you do it that way, the scale changes. Basically, it way, the scale changes. Basically, it way, the scale changes. Basically, it shrinks, it reduces, right? The scale shrinks, it reduces, right? The scale shrinks, it reduces, right? The scale you need to reach if you're going to you need to reach if you're going to you need to reach if you're going to reach people in a reach people in a reach people in a way that engages them more deeply way that engages them more deeply , more effectively, that's what we're , more effectively, that's what we're , more effectively, that's what we're hoping for. And isn't that what hoping for. And isn't that what hoping for. And isn't that what we all want? I think many we all want? I think many we all want? I think many marketing professionals try to do everything at once marketing professionals try to do everything at once marketing professionals try to do everything at once . And we need to get, . And we need to get, . And we need to get, you know, 10,000 contacts, and if we get you know, 10,000 contacts, and if we get you know, 10,000 contacts, and if we get that, then 1%, and that's going to give us... It's that, then 1%, and that's going to give us... It's that, then 1%, and that's going to give us... It's like we really need this, like we really need this, like we really need this, we want this? It's like we're we want this? It's like we're we want this? It's like we're filling filling filling people's inboxes, we're closing them...it's just people's inboxes, we're closing them...it's just people's inboxes, we're closing them...it's just chaos. And I think we need to be chaos. And I think we need to be chaos. And I think we need to be really honest with ourselves as really honest with ourselves as really honest with ourselves as marketers about how we've marketers about how we've marketers about how we've cluttered the field with a lot of cluttered the field with a lot of cluttered the field with a lot of unnecessary things to hit numbers unnecessary things to hit numbers unnecessary things to hit numbers that we probably could have that we probably could have that we probably could have achieved differently, or didn't even achieved differently, or didn't even achieved differently, or didn't even need to achieve in terms of need to achieve in terms of need to achieve in terms of actual sales and conversion. So, actual sales and conversion. So, actual sales and conversion. So, I prefer to focus on what is the I prefer to focus on what is the I prefer to focus on what is the leanest scale we need to achieve with the leanest scale we need to achieve with the leanest scale we need to achieve with the most effective and targeted reach. That's most effective and targeted reach. That's most effective and targeted reach. That's more or less what I try to more or less what I try to more or less what I try to focus on with our outreach and our

focus on with our outreach and our focus on with our outreach and our customers. customers. I've also expressed I've also expressed this repeatedly in webinars and this repeatedly in webinars and this repeatedly in webinars and such, where we've looked at the data and such, where we've looked at the data and such, where we've looked at the data and it shows that smaller lists it shows that smaller lists it shows that smaller lists perform better. Full stop. What perform better. Full stop. What perform better. Full stop. What is unclear is why. is unclear is why. is unclear is why. Just because you sent a campaign Just because you sent a campaign Just because you sent a campaign to 10 people doesn't mean it worked. There's something to that to 10 people doesn't mean it worked. There's something to that to 10 people doesn't mean it worked. There's something to that . And it's interesting because when . And it's interesting because when . And it's interesting because when I talk to marketing professionals, I talk to marketing professionals, I talk to marketing professionals, when I talk to people like you, when I talk to people like you, when I talk to people like you, people talk about creativity, people talk about creativity, people talk about creativity, messaging, and adding value. But messaging, and adding value. But messaging, and adding value. But I imagine that if you and I opened I imagine that if you and I opened I imagine that if you and I opened our inboxes for a minute, our inboxes for a minute, our inboxes for a minute, we would be able to prove or we would be able to prove or we would be able to prove or demonstrate that few people seem to demonstrate that few people seem to demonstrate that few people seem to follow that advice. What do you think is follow that advice. What do you think is follow that advice. What do you think is causing the problem? What do you think causing the problem? What do you think causing the problem? What do you think is really happening that's causing so is really happening that's causing so is really happening that's causing so many people who think this way many people who think this way many people who think this way about marketing not to actually do it? Because I about marketing not to actually do it? Because I about marketing not to actually do it? Because I don't think technology is the don't think technology is the don't think technology is the problem. problem. problem. So, your question is about why So, your question is about why So, your question is about why marketers are marketers are marketers are following their own advice on following their own advice on following their own advice on this matter, or, like, yeah, I understand.

this matter, or, like, yeah, I understand. this matter, or, like, yeah, I understand. Yes. I Yes. I Yes. I mean, yes, I think there's a lot to it mean, yes, I think there's a lot to it mean, yes, I think there's a lot to it , as I mentioned, like inertia , as I mentioned, like inertia , as I mentioned, like inertia is a real thing, and I think people are is a real thing, and I think people are is a real thing, and I think people are drawn to ways of performing drawn to ways of performing drawn to ways of performing their roles that are somewhat social, their roles that are somewhat social, their roles that are somewhat social, that integrate with the organization, that are that integrate with the organization, that are that integrate with the organization, that are institutional. Hmm, you know, I feel like institutional. Hmm, you know, I feel like institutional. Hmm, you know, I feel like I go to conferences these days and I'm I go to conferences these days and I'm I go to conferences these days and I'm like, "Man, everyone's kind of like, "Man, everyone's kind of like, "Man, everyone's kind of drinking the same Kool-Aid and singing the drinking the same Kool-Aid and singing the drinking the same Kool-Aid and singing the same song," when in reality same song," when in reality same song," when in reality we should be thinking about how to we should be thinking about how to we should be thinking about how to innovate in our roles, innovate in our roles, innovate in our roles, especially now with AI. Yes, this especially now with AI. Yes, this especially now with AI. Yes, this is frankly like eating our lunch is frankly like eating our lunch is frankly like eating our lunch in terms of production and so many other in terms of production and so many other in terms of production and so many other things. Hmm, so, you know, I think things. Hmm, so, you know, I think things. Hmm, so, you know, I think we're very social beings and we like to we're very social beings and we like to we're very social beings and we like to be part of the crowd and stand out be part of the crowd and stand out be part of the crowd and stand out and do something a little different. I and do something a little different. I and do something a little different. I mean, it works, but it's also very mean, it works, but it's also very mean, it works, but it's also very complicated and scary, you know, to stick your complicated and scary, you know, to stick your complicated and scary, you know, to stick your head out. Hmm, so head out. Hmm, so head out. Hmm, so we try to follow a we try to follow a we try to follow a middle ground, like, yes, we are middle ground, like, yes, we are middle ground, like, yes, we are real humans. Yes, you real humans. Yes, you real humans. Yes, you will still receive an automated email from us, will still receive an automated email from us, will still receive an automated email from us, as we are not above using as we are not above using as we are not above using this type of communication. Hmm, but what this type of communication. Hmm, but what this type of communication. Hmm, but what comes into play here is that there's comes into play here is that there's comes into play here is that there's better research, there's better training, better research, there's better training, better research, there's better training, a better understanding of you.

a better understanding of you. a better understanding of you. Some level of customization. And Some level of customization. And Some level of customization. And you can always do this using an you can always do this using an you can always do this using an AI tool. So, we'll use the AI tool. So, we'll use the AI tool. So, we'll use the tools, we'll grow, we'll move tools, we'll grow, we'll move , you know, with the market, but we'll also , you know, with the market, but we'll also , you know, with the market, but we'll also hold on to the things that make us hold on to the things that make us hold on to the things that make us human, because I think that's what human, because I think that's what human, because I think that's what everyone is craving right now. Hmm, everyone is craving right now. Hmm, everyone is craving right now. Hmm, okay, these tools can do okay, these tools can do okay, these tools can do a lot, but where's the "we"? Like, a lot, but where's the "we"? Like, a lot, but where's the "we"? Like, how does that make us more human? Hmm, how does that make us more human? Hmm, how does that make us more human? Hmm, and it's nice to see that kind of response. Do and it's nice to see that kind of response. Do and it's nice to see that kind of response. Do you think this helped you to you think this helped you to you think this helped you to better capture your ICP? To be blunt better capture your ICP? To be blunt better capture your ICP? To be blunt about it, because I feel the message about it, because I feel the message about it, because I feel the message surrounding Literal Humans is pretty clear surrounding Literal Humans is pretty clear surrounding Literal Humans is pretty clear on this point. on this point. on this point. Hmm, yes, I think it helps qualify Hmm, yes, I think it helps qualify Hmm, yes, I think it helps qualify people to enter and exit. I believe people to enter and exit. I believe people to enter and exit. I believe that, especially nowadays, that, especially nowadays, that, especially nowadays, people are, as I always say, people are, as I always say, people are, as I always say, looking for a platform and a looking for a platform and a looking for a platform and a partner. And if you can, you know, if you partner. And if you can, you know, if you partner. And if you can, you know, if you can be, I say to the team, you know, can be, I say to the team, you know, can be, I say to the team, you know, we can be innovative in one thing, we can be innovative in one thing, we can be innovative in one thing, distinctive in one thing, and competitive distinctive in one thing, and competitive distinctive in one thing, and competitive in another. This is simply a matter in another. This is simply a matter in another. This is simply a matter of energy. So, if we can be of energy. So, if we can be of energy. So, if we can be innovative in our solutions, that's where innovative in our solutions, that's where innovative in our solutions, that's where our clients look to us. They our clients look to us. They our clients look to us. They want us to help them generate revenue want us to help them generate revenue want us to help them generate revenue so they can grow and make a profit. If we do so they can grow and make a profit. If we do so they can grow and make a profit. If we do n't do this, we're finished. And n't do this, we're finished. And n't do this, we're finished. And the second thing we talked about is the second thing we talked about is the second thing we talked about is service and hospitality. They need to service and hospitality. They need to service and hospitality. They need to enjoy answering a call with us, enjoy answering a call with us, enjoy answering a call with us, and you connect with us, and we and you connect with us, and we and you connect with us, and we have to be really, um, um, have to be really, um, um, have to be really, um, um, irrational with how hospitable we irrational with how hospitable we irrational with how hospitable we are. Almost like a trendy hotel, are. Almost like a trendy hotel, are. Almost like a trendy hotel, you know, or some luxury brand, um, you know, or some luxury brand, um, you know, or some luxury brand, um, because that's going to make a difference because that's going to make a difference because that's going to make a difference nowadays, because we're competing nowadays, because we're competing nowadays, because we're competing against, you know, the junior designer who against, you know, the junior designer who against, you know, the junior designer who 's in the middle of their journey right now. Hmm, and

's in the middle of their journey right now. Hmm, and 's in the middle of their journey right now. Hmm, and that last thing we can be that last thing we can be that last thing we can be competitive in, we need to be competitive in, we need to be competitive in, we need to be competitive in creativity and, like, competitive in creativity and, like, competitive in creativity and, like, um, you know, product production, um, you know, product production, um, you know, product production, because that's the main point now. because that's the main point now. because that's the main point now. Competence in creativity Competence in creativity Competence in creativity is the basic level. Hmm, and not is the basic level. Hmm, and not is the basic level. Hmm, and not everyone will get it right, but I think it's the everyone will get it right, but I think it's the everyone will get it right, but I think it's the right balance, I'd say. right balance, I'd say. right balance, I'd say. There was a sentence you wrote, There was a sentence you wrote, There was a sentence you wrote, saying that founders treat saying that founders treat saying that founders treat marketing like a sales machine marketing like a sales machine marketing like a sales machine instead of a science. instead of a science. You're giving me way more You're giving me way more credit. No, I don't remember credit. No, I don't remember credit. No, I don't remember writing that. Hmm, yeah, I mean writing that. Hmm, yeah, I mean writing that. Hmm, yeah, I mean , it's something I really , it's something I really , it's something I really struggle with, like I feel like I've been struggle with, like I feel like I've been struggle with, like I feel like I've been in two professions, like in two professions, like in two professions, like educational marketing, where everyone educational marketing, where everyone educational marketing, where everyone thinks they know and can do it, and they're kind of thinks they know and can do it, and they're kind of thinks they know and can do it, and they're kind of disrespectful. As I tell disrespectful. As I tell disrespectful. As I tell the team, they would never tell a the team, they would never tell a the team, they would never tell a neurosurgeon which scalpel or neurosurgeon which scalpel or neurosurgeon which scalpel or tool to use and which part of the tool to use and which part of the tool to use and which part of the brain to insert. Usually, brain to insert. Usually, brain to insert. Usually, people come and say: we need to do people come and say: we need to do people come and say: we need to do this. This is a problem, and this is the this. This is a problem, and this is the this. This is a problem, and this is the specific tactic we need to specific tactic we need to specific tactic we need to implement. And I'm like, what? Like, implement. And I'm like, what? Like, implement. And I'm like, what? Like, this entry of yours here, and a large part this entry of yours here, and a large part this entry of yours here, and a large part of it, I'd say, is something you yourself of it, I'd say, is something you yourself of it, I'd say, is something you yourself ended up causing. I think there was a lot of ended up causing. I think there was a lot of ended up causing. I think there was a lot of waste. I think there was a lot of waste. I think there was a lot of waste. I think there was a lot of deception, a lot, frankly, of deception, a lot, frankly, of deception, a lot, frankly, of snake oil marketing, and snake oil marketing, and snake oil marketing, and we need to acknowledge that. Hmm, and then we need to acknowledge that. Hmm, and then we need to acknowledge that. Hmm, and then people come to us and we're like people come to us and we're like people come to us and we're like a burnt-out house, you know, a a burnt-out house, you know, a a burnt-out house, you know, a burnt-out house, because they've had burnt-out house, because they've had burnt-out house, because they've had bad experiences with agencies and bad experiences with agencies and bad experiences with agencies and marketing professionals. So, marketing professionals. So, marketing professionals. So, I think we need to do a I think we need to do a I think we need to do a better job of self-organizing and

better job of self-organizing and better job of self-organizing and regulating our profession, regulating our profession, regulating our profession, like doctors do or other like doctors do or other like doctors do or other sectors do. Hmm, that's interesting sectors do. Hmm, that's interesting sectors do. Hmm, that's interesting because I feel like marketing is the area because I feel like marketing is the area because I feel like marketing is the area in your organization that should be the most in your organization that should be the most in your organization that should be the most scientific. Hmm, and yet you scientific. Hmm, and yet you scientific. Hmm, and yet you 're right. I think a lot of the time it's 're right. I think a lot of the time it's 're right. I think a lot of the time it's like, "Okay, but wow, I put in like, "Okay, but wow, I put in like, "Okay, but wow, I put in $50. Shouldn't I be able to win, $50. Shouldn't I be able to win, $50. Shouldn't I be able to win, you know, a pack of Twinkies?" Hmm, you know, a pack of Twinkies?" Hmm, you know, a pack of Twinkies?" Hmm, what prompted you to write that? What is what prompted you to write that? What is what prompted you to write that? What is an example of something you saw that you an example of something you saw that you an example of something you saw that you felt needed to felt needed to felt needed to be said? be said? be said? Yes, I mean, I think I've become a Yes, I mean, I think I've become a Yes, I mean, I think I've become a little bitter. We had presented little bitter. We had presented little bitter. We had presented a health technology company. a health technology company. a health technology company. This is my way of processing This is my way of processing This is my way of processing it. A rejection. You know, I just... it. A rejection. You know, I just... it. A rejection. You know, I just... It's a good It's a good It's a good coded language. Yes, I thought coded language. Yes, I thought coded language. Yes, I thought everything was fine. A everything was fine. A everything was fine. A coded way of talking about it and, you know, coded way of talking about it and, you know, coded way of talking about it and, you know, in the case of, you know, this kind of in the case of, you know, this kind of in the case of, you know, this kind of rejection here. Hmm, we must have rejection here. Hmm, we must have rejection here. Hmm, we must have presented this health technology company presented this health technology company presented this health technology company about four or five times. about four or five times. about four or five times. They kept looking for us and the They kept looking for us and the They kept looking for us and the team was like, "Paul, what are you team was like, "Paul, what are you team was like, "Paul, what are you doing?" And I was thinking, "Ah, doing?" And I was thinking, "Ah, doing?" And I was thinking, "Ah, this time we're going to make it. This is going to be this time we're going to make it. This is going to be this time we're going to make it. This is going to be the time, you know, like, um, you know," and at the the time, you know, like, um, you know," and at the the time, you know, like, um, you know," and at the same time, another same time, another same time, another health tech company came to us and health tech company came to us and health tech company came to us and had a totally different energy.

had a totally different energy. Um, and it was really like I ... I really thought, "Wow, the ... I really thought, "Wow, the ... I really thought, "Wow, the universe showed me two very universe showed me two very universe showed me two very different startups in the same sector, you know, and I different startups in the same sector, you know, and I different startups in the same sector, you know, and I need to talk about them." Um, so need to talk about them." Um, so need to talk about them." Um, so they came to us and said, " they came to us and said, " they came to us and said, " We need this." "We need that." We need this." "We need that." We need this." "We need that." And they would change their minds and And they would change their minds and And they would change their minds and treat us almost like a treat us almost like a treat us almost like a vending machine. And so I think vending machine. And so I think vending machine. And so I think what's happening a lot now is what's happening a lot now is what's happening a lot now is that people are going to that people are going to that people are going to agencies and strategists, taking the agencies and strategists, taking the agencies and strategists, taking the strategy and then just strategy and then just strategy and then just throwing it at Claude and saying, "I throwing it at Claude and saying, "I throwing it at Claude and saying, "I can do this myself." "But for can do this myself." "But for can do this myself." "But for other people, they really other people, they really other people, they really treat us like partners, you know, and treat us like partners, you know, and treat us like partners, you know, and they... We have clients who have been with they... We have clients who have been with they... We have clients who have been with us since 2021. That's unheard of in the us since 2021. That's unheard of in the us since 2021. That's unheard of in the agency space. agency space. agency space. Yes. Yes. Yes. Unheard of. And that's because we've had our ups and Unheard of. And that's because we've had our ups and Unheard of. And that's because we've had our ups and downs. They've trusted us. downs. They've trusted us. downs. They've trusted us. We've built strong relationships. I We've built strong relationships. I We've built strong relationships. I have a client I celebrate have a client I celebrate have a client I celebrate Thanksgiving with every year. Um, you Thanksgiving with every year. Um, you Thanksgiving with every year. Um, you know, I know his kids' names and I know, I know his kids' names and I know, I know his kids' names and I ask about them and um, you know, I saw ask about them and um, you know, I saw ask about them and um, you know, I saw one of my clients on one of my clients on one of my clients on Christmas vacation in Philadelphia, he came all the way from New Christmas vacation in Philadelphia, he came all the way from New Christmas vacation in Philadelphia, he came all the way from New Jersey just to have coffee with me, Jersey just to have coffee with me, Jersey just to have coffee with me, you know? That's the kind of you know? That's the kind of you know? That's the kind of textured, layered, dense relationship we textured, layered, dense relationship we textured, layered, dense relationship we want with our clients because want with our clients because want with our clients because we know that in the long run that loyalty we know that in the long run that loyalty we know that in the long run that loyalty will pay off. Now, this, you know, will pay off. Now, this, you know, will pay off. Now, this, you know, one of those clients, they were one of those clients, they were one of those clients, they were acquired by a larger agency and acquired by a larger agency and acquired by a larger agency and they basically cashed in, and they basically cashed in, and they basically cashed in, and we continued working with them. And we continued working with them. And we continued working with them. And another one of them has been acquired another one of them has been acquired another one of them has been acquired twice now and has continued to twice now and has continued to twice now and has continued to show steady growth.

show steady growth. show steady growth. So, we think that kind of So, we think that kind of So, we think that kind of partnership, where you really partnership, where you really partnership, where you really observe and respect the other observe and respect the other observe and respect the other person's work, is what will..." We can help you person's work, is what will..." We can help you person's work, is what will..." We can help you overcome the obstacle, and we can prove overcome the obstacle, and we can prove overcome the obstacle, and we can prove it. it. it. That's incredible. Like, are you That's incredible. Like, are you That's incredible. Like, are you investing more in service and investing more in service and investing more in service and relationships so that they listen to relationships so that they listen to relationships so that they listen to you when you tell them an you when you tell them an you when you tell them an idea isn't good, or they become idea isn't good, or they become idea isn't good, or they become more respectful that way, or more respectful that way, or more respectful that way, or are you choosing your clients so that are you choosing your clients so that are you choosing your clients so that they fit the mold? Like, how much of they fit the mold? Like, how much of they fit the mold? Like, how much of that is one compared to the other? that is one compared to the other? Yes, that's a great question. I think it Yes, that's a great question. I think it 's a bit of both. I mean, we 's a bit of both. I mean, we , you know, we did the , you know, we did the , you know, we did the classic agency thing, where we pursued classic agency thing, where we pursued classic agency thing, where we pursued revenue because we needed it, and revenue because we needed it, and revenue because we needed it, and frankly, we knew, you know, frankly, we knew, you know, frankly, we knew, you know, more than I'd like to admit, that more than I'd like to admit, that more than I'd like to admit, that certain clients pay well but certain clients pay well but certain clients pay well but aren't a good fit. And we're kind of aren't a good fit. And we're kind of aren't a good fit. And we're kind of entering the space of, like, you entering the space of, like, you entering the space of, like, you know, what I think speaks well, you know, getting know, what I think speaks well, you know, getting know, what I think speaks well, you know, getting out of our name and our brand, out of our name and our brand, out of our name and our brand, like, we can put together the best like, we can put together the best like, we can put together the best strategy in the world; but if the humans strategy in the world; but if the humans strategy in the world; but if the humans leading this company don't leading this company don't leading this company don't understand and don't integrate understand and don't integrate understand and don't integrate effectively and help us execute effectively and help us execute effectively and help us execute the growth strategy we the growth strategy we the growth strategy we 've built with them, then we're 've built with them, then we're 've built with them, then we're all stuck. So now we're all stuck. So now we're all stuck. So now we're entering the coaching space and entering the coaching space and entering the coaching space and Leadership development, and because Leadership development, and because Leadership development, and because we're realizing that, you know, the we're realizing that, you know, the we're realizing that, you know, the blocker is usually humans.

blocker is usually humans. blocker is usually humans. Like, shock, you know, Like, shock, you know, Like, shock, you know, spoiler alert. Um, and we need to deal with spoiler alert. Um, and we need to deal with spoiler alert. Um, and we need to deal with that, and we need to be really that, and we need to be really that, and we need to be really honest and upfront, and that's a honest and upfront, and that's a honest and upfront, and that's a difficult thing to sell to a client, difficult thing to sell to a client, difficult thing to sell to a client, saying something like, "You're a little saying something like, "You're a little saying something like, "You're a little deficient in your leadership," you know, deficient in your leadership," you know, deficient in your leadership," you know, like we need to work on X, like we need to work on X, like we need to work on X, Y, and Z because here's this Y, and Z because here's this Y, and Z because here's this amazing growth strategy amazing growth strategy amazing growth strategy you paid for, and the way you paid for, and the way you paid for, and the way you're moving now, um, is you're moving now, um, is you're moving now, um, is really going to make it harder. Um, so really going to make it harder. Um, so really going to make it harder. Um, so there's a selection part there. Like there's a selection part there. Like there's a selection part there. Like trying not to select people who trying not to select people who trying not to select people who might be too difficult for might be too difficult for might be too difficult for our clients to overcome this process our clients to overcome this process . But I want to work with the people . But I want to work with the people . But I want to work with the people who need a little bit of that who need a little bit of that who need a little bit of that nudge, that training, and nudge, that training, and nudge, that training, and that support, so that they can, you that support, so that they can, you that support, so that they can, you know, execute this strategy know, execute this strategy know, execute this strategy effectively. And there's also the effectively. And there's also the effectively. And there's also the aftermath of making sure we're aftermath of making sure we're aftermath of making sure we're delivering for them, you know, in the next delivering for them, you know, in the next delivering for them, you know, in the next execution strategy, shifting execution strategy, shifting execution strategy, shifting course, being agile. Um, so it's a course, being agile. Um, so it's a course, being agile. Um, so it's a bit of both. bit of both. bit of both. This episode is brought to you This episode is brought to you This episode is brought to you by hunter.io, the A by hunter.io, the A by hunter.io, the A B2B lead generation platform made for every B2B lead generation platform made for every B2B lead generation platform made for every perfectionist. Whether it's prospecting, perfectionist. Whether it's prospecting, perfectionist. Whether it's prospecting, fundraising, recruitment, fundraising, recruitment, fundraising, recruitment, link building, or just link building, or just link building, or just trying to connect with the trying to connect with the trying to connect with the right people, Hunter makes it easy.

right people, Hunter makes it easy. So, you've been doing this for 6 years? At this agency, 6 years, at the At this agency, 6 years, at the previous agency, about three, so I'd previous agency, about three, so I'd previous agency, about three, so I'd say yes, close to 10. say yes, close to 10. Right. If you think about the Right. If you think about the post-COVID and pre-COVID period, is there any post-COVID and pre-COVID period, is there any post-COVID and pre-COVID period, is there any real structural difference in how real structural difference in how real structural difference in how you do what you do or you do what you do or you do what you do or how clients buy agencies? Do how clients buy agencies? Do how clients buy agencies? Do you see any difference between you see any difference between you see any difference between how people thought about how people thought about how people thought about agency partnerships before and agency partnerships before and agency partnerships before and after COVID? It's not so much after COVID? It's not so much after COVID? It's not so much about pre-COVID. I mean, I think about pre-COVID. I mean, I think about pre-COVID. I mean, I think there have been waves. Um, we joke that all we there have been waves. Um, we joke that all we there have been waves. Um, we joke that all we know is chaos because know is chaos because know is chaos because we started with COVID and now with AI and, we started with COVID and now with AI and, we started with COVID and now with AI and, you know, it's like I chose you know, it's like I chose you know, it's like I chose a terrible time to open an a terrible time to open an a terrible time to open an agency, but, you know, we're still around agency, but, you know, we're still around agency, but, you know, we're still around . I think after COVID and after . I think after COVID and after . I think after COVID and after 2023, the tech sector kind of 2023, the tech sector kind of 2023, the tech sector kind of collapsed. Now, the focus is much more collapsed. Now, the focus is much more collapsed. Now, the focus is much more In terms of revenue, it's much more about being In terms of revenue, it's much more about being In terms of revenue, it's much more about being profitable, and the days of profitable, and the days of profitable, and the days of overvalued companies, overvalued companies, overvalued companies, huge investment rounds, and money to huge investment rounds, and money to huge investment rounds, and money to burn are, in practice, behind us burn are, in practice, behind us burn are, in practice, behind us . I think that's good for . I think that's good for . I think that's good for our profession because, as you our profession because, as you our profession because, as you said before, we need to be more said before, we need to be more said before, we need to be more rigorous, more scientific, more rigorous, more scientific, more rigorous, more scientific, more connected to sales ROI conversions, connected to sales ROI conversions, connected to sales ROI conversions, and frankly, we should already and frankly, we should already and frankly, we should already be doing that. We're working be doing that. We're working be doing that. We're working closely with closely with closely with product teams, sales teams, and senior product teams, sales teams, and senior product teams, sales teams, and senior executives, and it amazes me that there are executives, and it amazes me that there are executives, and it amazes me that there are agencies that don't do that. But, of agencies that don't do that. But, of agencies that don't do that. But, of course. I think that was a course. I think that was a course. I think that was a significant shift, and recently, I think

significant shift, and recently, I think significant shift, and recently, I think AI has really shaken things up. I had a AI has really shaken things up. I had a AI has really shaken things up. I had a client, one of our client, one of our client, one of our oldest and one of our biggest clients, who oldest and one of our biggest clients, who oldest and one of our biggest clients, who pulled me aside and basically said, " pulled me aside and basically said, " pulled me aside and basically said, " Look, I can execute most Look, I can execute most Look, I can execute most of your mission with Claude— of your mission with Claude— of your mission with Claude— co-working, coding, and puzzles— co-working, coding, and puzzles— co-working, coding, and puzzles— but I'm not letting you go." I will be but I'm not letting you go." I will be but I'm not letting you go." I will be loyal to you because I know that I am now loyal to you because I know that I am now loyal to you because I know that I am now ahead of you, because I have time to ahead of you, because I have time to ahead of you, because I have time to build and research all these build and research all these build and research all these tools. But I know that at some tools. But I know that at some tools. But I know that at some point you'll be ahead of me point you'll be ahead of me , and that will add value for , and that will add value for , and that will add value for both of us. And now it's about entering that both of us. And now it's about entering that both of us. And now it's about entering that sandbox with clients and other partners sandbox with clients and other partners sandbox with clients and other partners and building together and building together and building together faster and more efficiently using AI. But it faster and more efficiently using AI. But it faster and more efficiently using AI. But it 's also not a beautiful thing that I 's also not a beautiful thing that I 's also not a beautiful thing that I 'm now working more closely 'm now working more closely 'm now working more closely with our CEO, our client's CEO, with our CEO, our client's CEO, with our CEO, our client's CEO, their sales director, a their sales director, a their sales director, a partner agency that does, you know, partner agency that does, you know, partner agency that does, you know, additional strategy, you know, their additional strategy, you know, their additional strategy, you know, their technical person, the product person technical person, the product person technical person, the product person essentially. That's great, and what essentially. That's great, and what essentially. That's great, and what the tools allow us to do the tools allow us to do the tools allow us to do has brought that to the forefront, and I think that's has brought that to the forefront, and I think that's has brought that to the forefront, and I think that's incredible because now we are humans incredible because now we are humans incredible because now we are humans working together, getting to working together, getting to working together, getting to know each other better and thinking more, and that know each other better and thinking more, and that know each other better and thinking more, and that 's wonderful. So, I think this 's wonderful. So, I think this 's wonderful. So, I think this is causing a very is causing a very is causing a very interesting shift, and we're trying to extend interesting shift, and we're trying to extend interesting shift, and we're trying to extend this to other clients.

this to other clients. this to other clients. This is a very interesting change This is a very interesting change . Moving on from you to me, because what . Moving on from you to me, because what . Moving on from you to me, because what you just presented is a you just presented is a you just presented is a completely different way of thinking about completely different way of thinking about completely different way of thinking about the impact of AI in these types of the impact of AI in these types of the impact of AI in these types of situations and relationships. The situations and relationships. The situations and relationships. The fact that you can use the fact that you can use the fact that you can use the tool to collaborate better together tool to collaborate better together perhaps speaks a little to the fact perhaps speaks a little to the fact perhaps speaks a little to the fact that, if you think, I think the that, if you think, I think the that, if you think, I think the magic secret of AI is: if you know magic secret of AI is: if you know magic secret of AI is: if you know exactly what you want, you know exactly exactly what you want, you know exactly exactly what you want, you know exactly where taste comes into play, and you know how where taste comes into play, and you know how where taste comes into play, and you know how to describe what you're looking for, AI to describe what you're looking for, AI to describe what you're looking for, AI can be an incredible unlocking tool can be an incredible unlocking tool can be an incredible unlocking tool . I think the misconception, the kind . I think the misconception, the kind . I think the misconception, the kind of misunderstanding, is that people of misunderstanding, is that people of misunderstanding, is that people think she's smarter think she's smarter think she's smarter than them and can simply ask than them and can simply ask than them and can simply ask her to do something they don't yet her to do something they don't yet her to do something they don't yet fully understand. I feel like that's pretty much what fully understand. I feel like that's pretty much what fully understand. I feel like that's pretty much what everyone thinks everyone thinks everyone thinks AI is going to do, like, "Oh, I'm AI is going to do, like, "Oh, I'm AI is going to do, like, "Oh, I'm terrible at marketing. So, I'm going to terrible at marketing. So, I'm going to terrible at marketing. So, I'm going to call Claude and tell him to be call Claude and tell him to be call Claude and tell him to be my marketing professional." But my marketing professional." But my marketing professional." But unfortunately, you probably don't unfortunately, you probably don't unfortunately, you probably don't know the difference in the first place. know the difference in the first place. What is your opinion on this? This What is your opinion on this? This is a very interesting concept that is a very interesting concept that is a very interesting concept that is bringing you closer together.

is bringing you closer together. is bringing you closer together. So, I think there are a few things So, I think there are a few things So, I think there are a few things here. I mean, one of them is that here. I mean, one of them is that here. I mean, one of them is that competence is the main point. I think what's competence is the main point. I think what's competence is the main point. I think what's interesting is that several interesting is that several interesting is that several people, and I say this with all due respect people, and I say this with all due respect people, and I say this with all due respect and understanding. It's as if everyone and understanding. It's as if everyone and understanding. It's as if everyone is at a different level of is at a different level of is at a different level of understanding in the profession. I was understanding in the profession. I was understanding in the profession. I was impressed by the impressed by the impressed by the steep learning curve I had to steep learning curve I had to steep learning curve I had to follow to become a follow to become a follow to become a marketing professional, you know, 10 years ago. It's marketing professional, you know, 10 years ago. It's marketing professional, you know, 10 years ago. It's incredible. And I say this with incredible. And I say this with incredible. And I say this with almost human humility. Now, people who almost human humility. Now, people who almost human humility. Now, people who have a skill and have a skill and have a skill and comprehension level of two or three out of ten, comprehension level of two or three out of ten, comprehension level of two or three out of ten, now have a basic level of five or now have a basic level of five or now have a basic level of five or six, because of what's inside six, because of what's inside six, because of what's inside LLMs and things like that. And that's crazy. LLMs and things like that. And that's crazy. LLMs and things like that. And that's crazy. It's crazy to think about it, right? Now, It's crazy to think about it, right? Now, It's crazy to think about it, right? Now, they won't reach seven or eight they won't reach seven or eight they won't reach seven or eight because of the limitations imposed by because of the limitations imposed by because of the limitations imposed by everything they simply don't everything they simply don't everything they simply don't know or are unaware of. But this changes know or are unaware of. But this changes know or are unaware of. But this changes the market's appearance in terms of the market's appearance in terms of the market's appearance in terms of talent and prospects, right? So what does talent and prospects, right? So what does talent and prospects, right? So what does this mean for the rest of us this mean for the rest of us ? This means we need to invest in ? This means we need to invest in ? This means we need to invest in these tools and expand to these tools and expand to these tools and expand to become even more competitive and become even more competitive and become even more competitive and truly differentiate ourselves from people truly differentiate ourselves from people truly differentiate ourselves from people who, in the past, it was easy for who, in the past, it was easy for who, in the past, it was easy for clients to simply ignore clients to simply ignore clients to simply ignore because it was clear they because it was clear they because it was clear they didn't know what they were talking about. But didn't know what they were talking about. But didn't know what they were talking about. But now, they can show up and compete and now, they can show up and compete and , you know, put together a document that looks like , you know, put together a document that looks like , you know, put together a document that looks like what I would propose to a what I would propose to a what I would propose to a client, because I put a lot of client, because I put a lot of client, because I put a lot of data in there too, and he's extracting data in there too, and he's extracting data in there too, and he's extracting from that. So, I think that's it. And

from that. So, I think that's it. And from that. So, I think that's it. And I think so, the other part is that I think so, the other part is that I think so, the other part is that we have to figure out a way to we have to figure out a way to we have to figure out a way to return those AI gains to return those AI gains to return those AI gains to customers in a transparent way. And that customers in a transparent way. And that customers in a transparent way. And that has to be speed. I think it has to has to be speed. I think it has to has to be speed. I think it has to be efficient. I think it has to be efficient. I think it has to be efficient. I think it has to be quality and rhythm. So, I think be quality and rhythm. So, I think be quality and rhythm. So, I think the more transparent we are about the more transparent we are about the more transparent we are about it, the better, you know, because customers it, the better, you know, because customers it, the better, you know, because customers are doing that. They are are doing that. They are are doing that. They are doing this on their own. So, we can doing this on their own. So, we can doing this on their own. So, we can very well be open about it. very well be open about it. very well be open about it. Yes, that's interesting. I want to think Yes, that's interesting. I want to think Yes, that's interesting. I want to think more about this, but I'm gathering more about this, but I'm gathering more about this, but I'm gathering from what you're saying that there was from what you're saying that there was from what you're saying that there was a time when you could have a time when you could have a time when you could have creative agencies or creative agencies or creative agencies or performance agencies, and they often performance agencies, and they often performance agencies, and they often did different things. Some did different things. Some did different things. Some of what you're talking about is of what you're talking about is of what you're talking about is almost as if AI is forcing almost as if AI is forcing almost as if AI is forcing a convergence here, where it's no a convergence here, where it's no a convergence here, where it's no longer acceptable to be just longer acceptable to be just longer acceptable to be just a creative agency or an a creative agency or an a creative agency or an execution agency, because the execution agency, because the execution agency, because the real benefit of staying above that real benefit of staying above that real benefit of staying above that five-star limit, or whatever it is, five-star limit, or whatever it is, five-star limit, or whatever it is, lies in the merging of those two. Yes, that lies in the merging of those two. Yes, that lies in the merging of those two. Yes, that 's interesting. That 's interesting. That 's interesting. That 's a great example, and I recommend I 's a great example, and I recommend I 's a great example, and I recommend I listen to Lenny's podcast.

listen to Lenny's podcast. listen to Lenny's podcast. Lenny's insights are very good. And he had Lenny's insights are very good. And he had Lenny's insights are very good. And he had Cat Wu, head of product, or sorry, Cat Wu, head of product, or sorry, Cat Wu, head of product, or sorry, head of product at Cloud Code, head head of product at Cloud Code, head head of product at Cloud Code, head of Cloud Code, recently, and she of Cloud Code, recently, and she of Cloud Code, recently, and she was talking about "product liking" was talking about "product liking" was talking about "product liking" as a key factor in hiring as a key factor in hiring as a key factor in hiring people and how you need to have these people and how you need to have these people and how you need to have these designers who are also designers who are also designers who are also developers, and now you have developers, and now you have developers, and now you have product managers who also know how to product managers who also know how to product managers who also know how to program a little bit. And you're right program a little bit. And you're right , convergence is the word. As if , convergence is the word. As if , convergence is the word. As if things were converging and things were converging and things were converging and mixing together. Therefore, having the mixing together. Therefore, having the mixing together. Therefore, having the ability to operate in these different ability to operate in these different ability to operate in these different roles will be an asset, and the roles will be an asset, and the roles will be an asset, and the tools will benefit them even tools will benefit them even tools will benefit them even more. So we need to be aware of more. So we need to be aware of more. So we need to be aware of this because it's going to increase. So, this because it's going to increase. So, this because it's going to increase. So, that's very interesting. I, you that's very interesting. I, you that's very interesting. I, you know, look, part of the reason for my know, look, part of the reason for my know, look, part of the reason for my fascination and my deep dive fascination and my deep dive fascination and my deep dive here is that I think Hunter's clients here is that I think Hunter's clients here is that I think Hunter's clients , not all of them, but a large , not all of them, but a large , not all of them, but a large number of them, especially in our number of them, especially in our number of them, especially in our SME segment, face this SME segment, face this SME segment, face this decision all the time, right? decision all the time, right? decision all the time, right? Their inbox is overflowing with Their inbox is overflowing with Their inbox is overflowing with offers to magically make meetings appear offers to magically make meetings appear offers to magically make meetings appear on their calendars, right? There is on their calendars, right? There is on their calendars, right? There is a lot of pressure to outsource the a lot of pressure to outsource the a lot of pressure to outsource the sales performance aspect and sales performance aspect and sales performance aspect and simply make the meetings simply make the meetings simply make the meetings happen. And I feel there's a happen. And I feel there's a happen. And I feel there's a lot of pressure for that, but I lot of pressure for that, but I lot of pressure for that, but I 'm not sure how to bring it all together.

'm not sure how to bring it all together. 'm not sure how to bring it all together. But it seems there is something. I'll come back to But it seems there is something. I'll come back to But it seems there is something. I'll come back to this subject, because I believe there's something this subject, because I believe there's something this subject, because I believe there's something here that I haven't yet been able to put into here that I haven't yet been able to put into here that I haven't yet been able to put into words, but this is a words, but this is a words, but this is a truly interesting topic. Let's talk truly interesting topic. Let's talk truly interesting topic. Let's talk specifically about how you go specifically about how you go specifically about how you go about getting new business, shall we? about getting new business, shall we? You know Hunter because you've You know Hunter because you've used him, but if I think about all the used him, but if I think about all the used him, but if I think about all the emails I receive and how you emails I receive and how you emails I receive and how you present your business, how you would present your business, how you would present your business, how you would present your business in present your business in present your business in my head, I wonder, how does my head, I wonder, how does my head, I wonder, how does Paul ensure that Literal Humans doesn't Paul ensure that Literal Humans doesn't Paul ensure that Literal Humans doesn't sound like everyone else? Without revealing any sound like everyone else? Without revealing any sound like everyone else? Without revealing any secrets, how do you ensure secrets, how do you ensure secrets, how do you ensure your presentations stand out? I your presentations stand out? I mean, a few things. First, I think mean, a few things. First, I think timing is everything, and timing is everything, and timing is everything, and qualification, as I said, is about qualification, as I said, is about qualification, as I said, is about ensuring we're meeting ensuring we're meeting ensuring we're meeting with them at the right time so it with them at the right time so it with them at the right time so it feels like a good, mutually beneficial partnership. To feels like a good, mutually beneficial partnership. To qualify them to the point where, you know, qualify them to the point where, you know, I can say, "Look, I have the I can say, "Look, I have the I can say, "Look, I have the team for you." Right now. And team for you." Right now. And team for you." Right now. And perhaps also the sectoral experience perhaps also the sectoral experience perhaps also the sectoral experience and the type of strategic know-how that and the type of strategic know-how that and the type of strategic know-how that is needed to be able to fill your is needed to be able to fill your is needed to be able to fill your bucket. I remember that point about bucket. I remember that point about bucket. I remember that point about personalization at scale, so, personalization at scale, so, personalization at scale, so, you know, investing in understanding, you you know, investing in understanding, you you know, investing in understanding, you know, their weaknesses, who they know, their weaknesses, who they know, their weaknesses, who they are as individuals. If you have a are as individuals. If you have a are as individuals. If you have a purchasing committee and you're the head of purchasing committee and you're the head of purchasing committee and you're the head of marketing, the head of communications, and marketing, the head of communications, and marketing, the head of communications, and the head of growth, we actually the head of growth, we actually the head of growth, we actually gave that speech the other day to gave that speech the other day to gave that speech the other day to a big energy company and a big energy company and a big energy company and we actually talked about we actually talked about we actually talked about each of their needs once in the speech. And each of their needs once in the speech. And each of their needs once in the speech. And you look directly at them and say,

you look directly at them and say, you look directly at them and say, "Hey, Alice, hey, Greg, hey, you know, "Hey, Alice, hey, Greg, hey, you know, "Hey, Alice, hey, Greg, hey, you know, hey, Sarah." Like, I know you hey, Sarah." Like, I know you hey, Sarah." Like, I know you 're worried about this. I know 're worried about this. I know 're worried about this. I know this is happening in the market. this is happening in the market. this is happening in the market. Let's, you know, add this here. Let's, you know, add this here. Let's, you know, add this here. Hmm, I think there's a part about Hmm, I think there's a part about Hmm, I think there's a part about being memorable; I mean, a lot of being memorable; I mean, a lot of being memorable; I mean, a lot of it is just nonsense and it is just nonsense and it is just nonsense and carelessness, isn't it? So, like, carelessness, isn't it? So, like, carelessness, isn't it? So, like, say something funny, you know, be say something funny, you know, be say something funny, you know, be irreverent, be quirky, you know, um, you irreverent, be quirky, you know, um, you irreverent, be quirky, you know, um, you know, catch them a little off guard. know, catch them a little off guard. know, catch them a little off guard. You know, so personalize it a little. Hmm, You know, so personalize it a little. Hmm, You know, so personalize it a little. Hmm, I think there's also an element of I think there's also an element of I think there's also an element of adding value. Hmm, we received a lot of adding value. Hmm, we received a lot of adding value. Hmm, we received a lot of people from whom I just took a people from whom I just took a people from whom I just took a great trip to New York. And we hear that a great trip to New York. And we hear that a great trip to New York. And we hear that a lot, which I like, it warms my lot, which I like, it warms my lot, which I like, it warms my heart, they say things like, "You know heart, they say things like, "You know heart, they say things like, "You know what? I don't usually reply to what? I don't usually reply to what? I don't usually reply to these emails, but something about yours." And these emails, but something about yours." And these emails, but something about yours." And they just scheduled a they just scheduled a they just scheduled a random meeting with me. It's so amazing. random meeting with me. It's so amazing. random meeting with me. It's so amazing. I was like, "Yeah." I'm doing a I was like, "Yeah." I'm doing a I was like, "Yeah." I'm doing a podcast with one of them, you know, after podcast with one of them, you know, after podcast with one of them, you know, after this. Hmm, and then thinking a lot about this. Hmm, and then thinking a lot about this. Hmm, and then thinking a lot about the quality of your writing, the value the quality of your writing, the value the quality of your writing, the value you're adding, the you're adding, the you're adding, the personalization, I think that's key. personalization, I think that's key. personalization, I think that's key. Hmm, and rethinking what scale is. Hmm, and rethinking what scale is. Hmm, and rethinking what scale is. Escala is like wanting to meet Escala is like wanting to meet Escala is like wanting to meet five great people in NYC. So, five great people in NYC. So, five great people in NYC. So, I'm going to set a target of, you know, maybe 50, I'm going to set a target of, you know, maybe 50, I'm going to set a target of, you know, maybe 50, and really invest in those 50, and I'll and really invest in those 50, and I'll and really invest in those 50, and I'll get five of them. And that's exactly what get five of them. And that's exactly what get five of them. And that's exactly what we did. Then.

we did. Then. we did. Then. Okay. That is good. I love that Okay. That is good. I love that Okay. That is good. I love that because you're not saying that because you're not saying that because you're not saying that scaling is bad, which is a load of rubbish scaling is bad, which is a load of rubbish scaling is bad, which is a load of rubbish that I think people think we're that I think people think we're that I think people think we're leading them to believe, and I'm saying, leading them to believe, and I'm saying, leading them to believe, and I'm saying, "No, no, no, no. That's not it." "No, no, no, no. That's not it." "No, no, no, no. That's not it." But short lists work for a But short lists work for a But short lists work for a reason, and that's because you can spend reason, and that's because you can spend reason, and that's because you can spend more energy on the people who are on that more energy on the people who are on that more energy on the people who are on that list. You can be sure list. You can be sure list. You can be sure the message makes sense because all the message makes sense because all the message makes sense because all 50 people are very similar. 50 people are very similar. 50 people are very similar. This doesn't mean stopping at 50. It This doesn't mean stopping at 50. It This doesn't mean stopping at 50. It just means being careful with the just means being careful with the just means being careful with the goal, being considerate of the audience, and goal, being considerate of the audience, and goal, being considerate of the audience, and making sure you're aligning the making sure you're aligning the making sure you're aligning the right set of things. Hmm, yes, that's what right set of things. Hmm, yes, that's what right set of things. Hmm, yes, that's what I like. I like. I like. Yes, I think signal strength matters, as Yes, I think signal strength matters, as Yes, I think signal strength matters, as many people operate with volume and many people operate with volume and many people operate with volume and noise, but not with signal strength. So, noise, but not with signal strength. So, noise, but not with signal strength. So, um, how are you? I mean, one um, how are you? I mean, one um, how are you? I mean, one little thing is, you know, when I went little thing is, you know, when I went little thing is, you know, when I went to Amsterdam, you know, a few months to Amsterdam, you know, a few months to Amsterdam, you know, a few months ago, initially we were ago, initially we were ago, initially we were trying to get people to come to trying to get people to come to trying to get people to come to Starbucks and then we thought that Starbucks and then we thought that Starbucks and then we thought that wasn't working. We moved into wasn't working. We moved into wasn't working. We moved into Soho House and people just... Soho House and people just... Okay, so what's that sign, right? Okay, so what's that sign, right? Okay, so what's that sign, right? Um, and then, um, you know, maybe Um, and then, um, you know, maybe Um, and then, um, you know, maybe mentioning that you're mentioning that you're mentioning that you're meeting with, like, some other meeting with, like, some other meeting with, like, some other people in their industry that they people in their industry that they people in their industry that they know, and that kind of sends, um, you know, and that kind of sends, um, you know, and that kind of sends, um, you know, a little signal that, okay, this know, a little signal that, okay, this know, a little signal that, okay, this person, she's connected with people person, she's connected with people person, she's connected with people I respect and know, so I I respect and know, so I I respect and know, so I should probably meet with should probably meet with should probably meet with her, you know. Hmm, so sew this up, her, you know. Hmm, so sew this up, her, you know. Hmm, so sew this up, hmm, and don't give up either. Hmm, you know hmm, and don't give up either. Hmm, you know , and be persistent. And then I think it's , and be persistent. And then I think it's , and be persistent. And then I think it's also about how you reflect on it.

also about how you reflect on it. So, after I went to Amsterdam, So, after I went to Amsterdam, I basically made a I basically made a I basically made a summary post where I talked about how each summary post where I talked about how each summary post where I talked about how each person I spoke to had this person I spoke to had this person I spoke to had this interesting kinesthetic trait interesting kinesthetic trait . It was tangible. There was something you . It was tangible. There was something you . It was tangible. There was something you could hold onto, something you could feel could hold onto, something you could feel could hold onto, something you could feel in all these different types of in all these different types of in all these different types of companies. And I found that interesting, companies. And I found that interesting, companies. And I found that interesting, and I got on a sales call with and I got on a sales call with and I got on a sales call with one of the mentors, and they said they one of the mentors, and they said they one of the mentors, and they said they loved that you included us in that loved that you included us in that loved that you included us in that post and that you reflected on it. And post and that you reflected on it. And post and that you reflected on it. And now, they're going to recommend me to now, they're going to recommend me to now, they're going to recommend me to someone else or, you know, they're going to meet someone else or, you know, they're going to meet someone else or, you know, they're going to meet with me again. And I didn't close the with me again. And I didn't close the with me again. And I didn't close the deal, but I will in the future, you know, deal, but I will in the future, you know, deal, but I will in the future, you know, so I think it's about following up. It's so I think it's about following up. It's so I think it's about following up. It's reflection. I think that could also reflection. I think that could also reflection. I think that could also help a lot. help a lot. help a lot. Okay. So, our customers, Okay. So, our customers, Okay. So, our customers, let me return to the topic I let me return to the topic I let me return to the topic I was thinking about earlier. So, the was thinking about earlier. So, the was thinking about earlier. So, the clients are, or I think actually clients are, or I think actually clients are, or I think actually are, people from small businesses in are, people from small businesses in are, people from small businesses in general, but we've talked to a lot of them general, but we've talked to a lot of them general, but we've talked to a lot of them who are trying to decide who are trying to decide who are trying to decide whether they should do this themselves for whether they should do this themselves for whether they should do this themselves for marketing specifically, or if an marketing specifically, or if an marketing specifically, or if an agency is the right answer. And I imagine agency is the right answer. And I imagine , from this conversation, that, like , from this conversation, that, like , from this conversation, that, like me, you probably don't think there's me, you probably don't think there's me, you probably don't think there's a single solution that works for a single solution that works for a single solution that works for everyone here. So, imagine you everyone here. So, imagine you everyone here. So, imagine you 're speaking to our audience. They 're speaking to our audience. They 're speaking to our audience. They are trying to figure out whether they should are trying to figure out whether they should are trying to figure out whether they should try this or if an agency is a try this or if an agency is a try this or if an agency is a better option. Tell them how to make better option. Tell them how to make better option. Tell them how to make that decision.

that decision. It's an agency versus what? I think that's It's an agency versus what? I think that's your question. I didn't understand. your question. I didn't understand. your question. I didn't understand. Versus do-it-yourself. Simply Versus do-it-yourself. Simply Versus do-it-yourself. Simply buy the software and handle the buy the software and handle the buy the software and handle the marketing yourself. Yes. marketing yourself. Yes. marketing yourself. Yes. Yes, I mean, I think for me, Yes, I mean, I think for me, Yes, I mean, I think for me, it comes back to the partnership and the it comes back to the partnership and the it comes back to the partnership and the platform, right? Hmm, I think there's no platform, right? Hmm, I think there's no platform, right? Hmm, I think there's no problem in having a tool, using problem in having a tool, using it, and taking it as far as possible. it, and taking it as far as possible. Hmm, but at some point, you're Hmm, but at some point, you're really going to benefit from using really going to benefit from using really going to benefit from using this tool with other people and this tool with other people and this tool with other people and building some kind of building some kind of building some kind of community or partnership with someone community or partnership with someone community or partnership with someone you know knows a little more you know knows a little more you know knows a little more than you do about these things. And also than you do about these things. And also , implicitly, there is a respect , implicitly, there is a respect , implicitly, there is a respect for the profession of marketing and sales. for the profession of marketing and sales. for the profession of marketing and sales. And I think many people are And I think many people are And I think many people are easily cynical about these easily cynical about these easily cynical about these professions. Dan Daniel Pink's book professions. Dan Daniel Pink's book , What Is This? Selling is human, it's , What Is This? Selling is human, it's , What Is This? Selling is human, it's fantastic. Excellent. And it talks about fantastic. Excellent. And it talks about fantastic. Excellent. And it talks about salespeople who cling to power. And salespeople who cling to power. And salespeople who cling to power. And I think salespeople will become I think salespeople will become I think salespeople will become even more important. See what even more important. See what even more important. See what 's happening now. Like, if you 's happening now. Like, if you 's happening now. Like, if you can talk to another human and can talk to another human and can talk to another human and sell, and then you can sell, and then you can sell, and then you can also execute with all these also execute with all these also execute with all these AI tools, you're unstoppable. Like, that was AI tools, you're unstoppable. Like, that was AI tools, you're unstoppable. Like, that was the joke about salespeople. They can't the joke about salespeople. They can't the joke about salespeople. They can't execute it. They can only execute it. They can only execute it. They can only sell, but they can't manage sell, but they can't manage sell, but they can't manage projects for all of these things. It's like projects for all of these things. It's like , okay, well, now they have the , okay, well, now they have the , okay, well, now they have the Perplexity computer and Claude works in Perplexity computer and Claude works in Perplexity computer and Claude works in conjunction with it, and like, so if you conjunction with it, and like, so if you conjunction with it, and like, so if you can convince other people to can convince other people to can convince other people to buy what you're selling and buy what you're selling and buy what you're selling and deliver it, wow. So, I'm deliver it, wow. So, I'm deliver it, wow. So, I'm optimistic about salespeople and people who optimistic about salespeople and people who optimistic about salespeople and people who can connect with other can connect with other can connect with other humans and now can also do a humans and now can also do a humans and now can also do a lot of the work with AI.

lot of the work with AI. lot of the work with AI. What is it about their position in the business What is it about their position in the business What is it about their position in the business that suggests an agency is a better that suggests an agency is a better that suggests an agency is a better fit for them? fit for them? I liked that you mentioned where they are I liked that you mentioned where they are in the business because I think timing in the business because I think timing in the business because I think timing is everything, right? Hmm, and I think it's is everything, right? Hmm, and I think it's is everything, right? Hmm, and I think it's less about conceptually choosing less about conceptually choosing less about conceptually choosing an agency over a freelancer an agency over a freelancer an agency over a freelancer over an in-house hire, over an in-house hire, over an in-house hire, than about choosing the right partner. And than about choosing the right partner. And than about choosing the right partner. And sometimes that partner is that sometimes that partner is that sometimes that partner is that freelancer, or that, you know, freelancer, or that, you know, freelancer, or that, you know, full-time employee, or full-time employee, or full-time employee, or that agency. I think agencies that agency. I think agencies that agency. I think agencies today are better positioned when today are better positioned when today are better positioned when they appear as a holistic partner they appear as a holistic partner they appear as a holistic partner that can kind of pivot from the that can kind of pivot from the that can kind of pivot from the different priorities that clients different priorities that clients different priorities that clients have month to month, quarter to quarter have month to month, quarter to quarter . Hmm, and that's how, you know, . Hmm, and that's how, you know, . Hmm, and that's how, you know, we're rethinking it. Not everyone we're rethinking it. Not everyone we're rethinking it. Not everyone agrees with that. Some people agrees with that. Some people agrees with that. Some people are going completely deep. are going completely deep. are going completely deep. I think this also works because I think this also works because I think this also works because sometimes that party you sometimes that party you sometimes that party you need is absolutely amazing need is absolutely amazing need is absolutely amazing when it comes to web experiences, when it comes to web experiences, when it comes to web experiences, and you need them for a year, and that's and you need them for a year, and that's and you need them for a year, and that's okay. Hmm, but I think it's about okay. Hmm, but I think it's about okay. Hmm, but I think it's about chemistry, about suitability, about chemistry, about suitability, about chemistry, about suitability, about alignment. Hmm, and to take the alignment. Hmm, and to take the alignment. Hmm, and to take the time to build that time to build that time to build that relationship and, um, and yes, thinking relationship and, um, and yes, thinking relationship and, um, and yes, thinking that way. You know, because if you set a that way. You know, because if you set a that way. You know, because if you set a really strong criterion for "I really strong criterion for "I really strong criterion for "I need this type of partner right now," need this type of partner right now," need this type of partner right now," at this stage of the life cycle my at this stage of the life cycle my at this stage of the life cycle my business is in, you'll always win.

business is in, you'll always win. You will always win, and it's all about You will always win, and it's all about getting the briefing right. When you access our getting the briefing right. When you access our getting the briefing right. When you access our website, we have a small dropdown menu website, we have a small dropdown menu website, we have a small dropdown menu that explains how to create a briefing for an that explains how to create a briefing for an that explains how to create a briefing for an agency. We have a guide because we're agency. We have a guide because we're agency. We have a guide because we're tired of receiving bad briefings. tired of receiving bad briefings. tired of receiving bad briefings. Well, if you really Well, if you really Well, if you really think about your briefing for the type of think about your briefing for the type of think about your briefing for the type of partner you need, you'll partner you need, you'll partner you need, you'll always win. You will always win, always win. You will always win, always win. You will always win, and this will also help you decide what and this will also help you decide what and this will also help you decide what type of partner to select. type of partner to select. type of partner to select. I like that. That's good advice I like that. That's good advice . And that's a great transition from how . And that's a great transition from how . And that's a great transition from how this is usually this is usually this is usually framed in our emails, which framed in our emails, which framed in our emails, which isn't about partnership. Okay, so here isn't about partnership. Okay, so here isn't about partnership. Okay, so here 's a real email that is, 's a real email that is, 's a real email that is, by the way, very similar to the 100 I by the way, very similar to the 100 I by the way, very similar to the 100 I probably receive every day. It says: " probably receive every day. It says: " Buyers on Reddit" is the Buyers on Reddit" is the Buyers on Reddit" is the subject line. "James, I noticed you posted subject line. "James, I noticed you posted subject line. "James, I noticed you posted some case studies and four blog posts some case studies and four blog posts some case studies and four blog posts about your new about your new about your new software updates this month. We take content software updates this month. We take content software updates this month. We take content like that and put it into like that and put it into like that and put it into Reddit discussions, where buyers Reddit discussions, where buyers Reddit discussions, where buyers research before they buy. That's how research before they buy. That's how research before they buy. That's how brands start showing up in brands start showing up in brands start showing up in ChatGPT and AI results. We're ChatGPT and AI results. We're ChatGPT and AI results. We're doing this with over 70 companies doing this with over 70 companies doing this with over 70 companies now. Should I set up a now. Should I set up a now. Should I set up a Reddit audit for Hunter? And then some Reddit audit for Hunter? And then some Reddit audit for Hunter? And then some sort of signature, no response, sort of signature, no response, sort of signature, no response, reply no, but no interest, reply no, but no interest, reply no, but no interest, reply no, and I'm leaving. What do reply no, and I'm leaving. What do reply no, and I'm leaving. What do you think of that?

you think of that? Should I start with the good, the bad, or the Should I start with the good, the bad, or the ugly? ugly? ugly? Which is yours? You choose. Which is the Which is yours? You choose. Which is the Which is yours? You choose. Which is the good? Yeah, let's do the good, the bad, the good? Yeah, let's do the good, the bad, the good? Yeah, let's do the good, the bad, the ugly. Which is the good? I ugly. Which is the good? I ugly. Which is the good? I mean, I like buyers, you mean, I like buyers, you mean, I like buyers, you know, so the fact that they know, so the fact that they know, so the fact that they identified themselves in the subject line as identified themselves in the subject line as identified themselves in the subject line as buyers, that's what I want. buyers, that's what I want. buyers, that's what I want. Reddit is a platform we Reddit is a platform we Reddit is a platform we 're not operating on as much as 're not operating on as much as 're not operating on as much as we should be. So, the subject line we should be. So, the subject line we should be. So, the subject line is good for me. I like that they is good for me. I like that they is good for me. I like that they mentioned they're working with mentioned they're working with mentioned they're working with over 70 companies. I'd love to know over 70 companies. I'd love to know over 70 companies. I'd love to know who..." Yes. Hmm, but that could be who..." Yes. Hmm, but that could be who..." Yes. Hmm, but that could be social proof. Hmm, but yeah, in general, it social proof. Hmm, but yeah, in general, it social proof. Hmm, but yeah, in general, it looks like one of those, you know, a looks like one of those, you know, a looks like one of those, you know, a simple, automated text, oh, let's simple, automated text, oh, let's simple, automated text, oh, let's personalize it at the top and say your name, personalize it at the top and say your name, personalize it at the top and say your name, and then basically, you know, the rest is and then basically, you know, the rest is and then basically, you know, the rest is cliché. Hmm, and yeah, they put cliché. Hmm, and yeah, they put cliché. Hmm, and yeah, they put Hunter at the end. Obviously, that's a Hunter at the end. Obviously, that's a Hunter at the end. Obviously, that's a bit of personalization, in quotes. bit of personalization, in quotes. bit of personalization, in quotes. Hmm, but, and obviously, the "not Hmm, but, and obviously, the "not Hmm, but, and obviously, the "not interested" thing at the end is very, very interested" thing at the end is very, very interested" thing at the end is very, very welcome because, to that, I'm welcome because, to that, I'm welcome because, to that, I'm definitely going to, you know, reply definitely going to, you know, reply definitely going to, you know, reply no or unsubscribe. But, no or unsubscribe. But, no or unsubscribe. But, but also, when I see that, I but also, when I see that, I but also, when I see that, I immediately know it's likely to be immediately know it's likely to be , you know, an automated email with the , you know, an automated email with the , you know, an automated email with the kind of thing that's there. So, kind of thing that's there. So, kind of thing that's there. So, yeah.

yeah. yeah. So, the good side was the So, the good side was the So, the good side was the subject line and that they made a subject line and that they made a subject line and that they made a fleeting attempt at fleeting attempt at fleeting attempt at personalization. What's the bad side? personalization. What's the bad side? personalization. What's the bad side? Because it seems like there were more Because it seems like there were more Because it seems like there were more bad things than good. bad things than good. bad things than good. Hmm, no, I mean, actually, Hmm, no, I mean, actually, Hmm, no, I mean, actually, I'm saying I think the I'm saying I think the I'm saying I think the personalization is minimal and could personalization is minimal and could personalization is minimal and could be much stronger. And what they be much stronger. And what they be much stronger. And what they do is interesting, like, for do is interesting, like, for do is interesting, like, for example, getting mining content example, getting mining content , getting into discussions. on Reddit. , getting into discussions. on Reddit. I'd like to understand this a little I'd like to understand this a little better because I think this is very better because I think this is very better because I think this is very difficult for Reddit, I mean, difficult for Reddit, I mean, difficult for Reddit, I mean, impossible. And also, this part impossible. And also, this part impossible. And also, this part about appearing on ChatGPT and in about appearing on ChatGPT and in about appearing on ChatGPT and in AI results, I think they kind of AI results, I think they kind of AI results, I think they kind of buried that a little bit because it's buried that a little bit because it's buried that a little bit because it's top of everyone's mind. So top of everyone's mind. So , for me, it's like a , for me, it's like a , for me, it's like a missed opportunity to talk to... Okay, here's the missed opportunity to talk to... Okay, here's the missed opportunity to talk to... Okay, here's the result. Here's the result. Here's the result. Here's the business outcome we helped you business outcome we helped you business outcome we helped you achieve. So, how would they achieve. So, how would they achieve. So, how would they prioritize this email? prioritize this email? prioritize this email? Okay, so what's the problem? Okay, so what's the problem? Okay, so what's the problem? I mean, maybe the title like John I mean, maybe the title like John I mean, maybe the title like John D. Growth, as soon as I see growth hacker D. Growth, as soon as I see growth hacker , I think "I'm out." I like the brand name , I think "I'm out." I like the brand name , I think "I'm out." I like the brand name Growth Manifesto, but I don't like it. I like Growth Manifesto, but I don't like it. I like Growth Manifesto, but I don't like it. I like giving names to things. I hate that giving names to things. I hate that giving names to things. I hate that name. Yes, the absence of name. Yes, the absence of name. Yes, the absence of capital letters in the subject line capital letters in the subject line capital letters in the subject line totally discourages me as a teacher or totally discourages me as a teacher or totally discourages me as a teacher or former English teacher. Um, yes, it's former English teacher. Um, yes, it's former English teacher. Um, yes, it's that the structure is like it's just that that the structure is like it's just that that the structure is like it's just that , that's all. And , that's all. And , that's all. And if you could change one thing about if you could change one thing about if you could change one thing about it that you think would improve the it that you think would improve the it that you think would improve the response rate or the outcome of this? What would response rate or the outcome of this? What would response rate or the outcome of this? What would you Do you think that would be the change, or what would you Do you think that would be the change, or what would you Do you think that would be the change, or what would you recommend?

you recommend? you recommend? I think focusing on that, on the I think focusing on that, on the I think focusing on that, on the business outcome, you know, like, helping brands business outcome, you know, like, helping brands business outcome, you know, like, helping brands show up in AI search results show up in AI search results show up in AI search results . Um, and prioritizing that, whether in the . Um, and prioritizing that, whether in the . Um, and prioritizing that, whether in the subject line or much higher up. subject line or much higher up. That personalization line, as That personalization line, as you posted case studies on four you posted case studies on four you posted case studies on four blogs, sure, yes. What do you think of blogs, sure, yes. What do you think of blogs, sure, yes. What do you think of that personalization? What are you that personalization? What are you that personalization? What are you doing? Um, so yes, that's what doing? Um, so yes, that's what doing? Um, so yes, that's what I would prioritize. I would prioritize. I would prioritize. Thanks, Paul. That was great. Just Thanks, Paul. That was great. Just Thanks, Paul. That was great. Just to make things more challenging, to make things more challenging, to make things more challenging, I get an even more difficult and I get an even more difficult and I get an even more difficult and useless email. And you're right, useless email. And you're right, useless email. And you're right, you actually had some you actually had some you actually had some content of your own that you could content of your own that you could content of your own that you could really work with. This one says the subject line is really work with. This one says the subject line is really work with. This one says the subject line is connecting with teams that need connecting with teams that need connecting with teams that need marketing. Connecting with teams that marketing. Connecting with teams that marketing. Connecting with teams that need marketing. Right. Hi, need marketing. Right. Hi, need marketing. Right. Hi, Paul. The reason I reached Paul. The reason I reached Paul. The reason I reached out is that I noticed your expertise out is that I noticed your expertise out is that I noticed your expertise in human-centric marketing strategies, in human-centric marketing strategies, in human-centric marketing strategies, and we can connect you with and we can connect you with and we can connect you with over 15 mission-driven brands over 15 mission-driven brands over 15 mission-driven brands in EdTech, FinTech, and HealthTech in EdTech, FinTech, and HealthTech in EdTech, FinTech, and HealthTech that are looking for marketing support and that are looking for marketing support and that are looking for marketing support and are open to learning more. No are open to learning more. No are open to learning more. No name, No subject, no "sorry," no name, No subject, no "sorry," no name, No subject, no "sorry," no signature, no social proof, nothing signature, no social proof, nothing signature, no social proof, nothing in this. Hmm, yeah, that's terrible.

in this. Hmm, yeah, that's terrible. in this. Hmm, yeah, that's terrible. You actually received this email, You actually received this email, You actually received this email, right? right? right? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. We get a lot of these where We get a lot of these where We get a lot of these where people focus on people focus on people focus on human-centered marketing and think human-centered marketing and think human-centered marketing and think repeating that to us and telling us repeating that to us and telling us repeating that to us and telling us they'll find mission-driven brands they'll find mission-driven brands they'll find mission-driven brands will... Hmm, and I never reply. will... Hmm, and I never reply. will... Hmm, and I never reply. Yeah, well, yeah, it's the lowest form of Yeah, well, yeah, it's the lowest form of ... Yeah, I took the phrase from ... Yeah, I took the phrase from ... Yeah, I took the phrase from your website's keywords. What do you your website's keywords. What do you your website's keywords. What do you think? Yeah, okay, so where would I go with think? Yeah, okay, so where would I go with think? Yeah, okay, so where would I go with that? I'll use your good, that? I'll use your good, that? I'll use your good, bad, and ugly framing here. Good. It's short. Short bad, and ugly framing here. Good. It's short. Short bad, and ugly framing here. Good. It's short. Short is good. Hmm, I appreciate that they is good. Hmm, I appreciate that they is good. Hmm, I appreciate that they asked if you were open to asked if you were open to asked if you were open to learning more. That usually learning more. That usually learning more. That usually means you're not being means you're not being means you're not being too presumptuous in the first message, too presumptuous in the first message, too presumptuous in the first message, nor are you trying to sell everything right nor are you trying to sell everything right nor are you trying to sell everything right away, so that's good. Hmm, so, away, so that's good. Hmm, so, away, so that's good. Hmm, so, some positives. They capitalized some positives. They capitalized some positives. They capitalized the first word of the subject the first word of the subject the first word of the subject , so I agree with you, , so I agree with you, , so I agree with you, and I'm not an English teacher. I just do and I'm not an English teacher. I just do and I'm not an English teacher. I just do n't know why people think that n't know why people think that n't know why people think that It's a good idea. Hmm, bad. Okay, bad It's a good idea. Hmm, bad. Okay, bad It's a good idea. Hmm, bad. Okay, bad is that there's no subject matter, no is that there's no subject matter, no is that there's no subject matter, no brand association, no brand association, no brand association, no credibility, no trust.

credibility, no trust. credibility, no trust. They haven't done anything in this email They haven't done anything in this email They haven't done anything in this email to really suggest that they know about to really suggest that they know about to really suggest that they know about you, your company, or the fact that you, your company, or the fact that you, your company, or the fact that this email was sent to you or this email was sent to you or this email was sent to you or your company. It just feels like your company. It just feels like your company. It just feels like no thought is given. And I think no thought is given. And I think no thought is given. And I think the bad side, actually, the bad and the the bad side, actually, the bad and the the bad side, actually, the bad and the bad side are the same thing. I bad side are the same thing. I bad side are the same thing. I mean, no thought given to mean, no thought given to mean, no thought given to trust and credibility. Hmm, trust and credibility. Hmm, trust and credibility. Hmm, you're randomly showing up you're randomly showing up you're randomly showing up in someone's email inbox and asking for in someone's email inbox and asking for in someone's email inbox and asking for their attention and time, but you're not their attention and time, but you're not their attention and time, but you're not willing to part with any willing to part with any willing to part with any of your own. And that to me is always the of your own. And that to me is always the of your own. And that to me is always the big problem. It's like you didn't big problem. It's like you didn't big problem. It's like you didn't spend any energy sending me this, spend any energy sending me this, spend any energy sending me this, but you want me to spend energy but you want me to spend energy but you want me to spend energy responding. Like I don't like responding. Like I don't like responding. Like I don't like that kind of exchange. That that kind of exchange. That that kind of exchange. That value exchange feels wrong to me. In value exchange feels wrong to me. In value exchange feels wrong to me. In terms of how I would do it differently, terms of how I would do it differently, terms of how I would do it differently, honestly, I think I would discard the honestly, I think I would discard the honestly, I think I would discard the entire email and start over. entire email and start over. entire email and start over. Probably do something different. Probably do something different. Probably do something different. I think, within that context, I'm I think, within that context, I'm I think, within that context, I'm just a scheduling agency or just a scheduling agency or just a scheduling agency or a... Lead generation.

a... Lead generation. a... Lead generation. So, what am I really selling? So, what am I really selling? So, what am I really selling? You know, I would probably start with You know, I would probably start with You know, I would probably start with a differentiator, almost a a differentiator, almost a a differentiator, almost a conclusion or something that was really conclusion or something that was really conclusion or something that was really authentic here, that showed authentic here, that showed authentic here, that showed genuine interest and tried to engage genuine interest and tried to engage genuine interest and tried to engage in a conversation. So, what I would say in a conversation. So, what I would say in a conversation. So, what I would say is something like: "We work with companies is something like: "We work with companies is something like: "We work with companies in many sectors, including in many sectors, including in many sectors, including educational technology, financial technology, and educational technology, financial technology, and educational technology, financial technology, and healthcare technology." "I really healthcare technology." "I really healthcare technology." "I really like what you have on your like what you have on your like what you have on your website or what you've said about your website or what you've said about your website or what you've said about your mission. I really like your mission. I really like your mission. I really like your case studies. Something along those lines. And I'd case studies. Something along those lines. And I'd case studies. Something along those lines. And I'd love to see if there's a way we can love to see if there's a way we can love to see if there's a way we can work together, because we have work together, because we have work together, because we have meetings for companies like this meetings for companies like this meetings for companies like this everywhere. Would you be everywhere. Would you be everywhere. Would you be willing to spend 10 minutes with me and willing to spend 10 minutes with me and willing to spend 10 minutes with me and explain what you look for in a explain what you look for in a explain what you look for in a client? Like, is a mission-driven brand client? Like, is a mission-driven brand client? Like, is a mission-driven brand a good option or a good option or a good option or is it something else? Like, I could is it something else? Like, I could is it something else? Like, I could try to spark a conversation where I'm try to spark a conversation where I'm try to spark a conversation where I'm not really saying I've already not really saying I've already not really saying I've already solved your problem. I'm actually solved your problem. I'm actually solved your problem. I'm actually trying to see if there's a way trying to see if there's a way trying to see if there's a way we can solve this together. I don't know if we can solve this together. I don't know if we can solve this together. I don't know if this is a good quick rewrite, but this is a good quick rewrite, but this is a good quick rewrite, but conceptually, that's what I conceptually, that's what I conceptually, that's what I would probably try to achieve. Um, I would probably try to achieve. Um, I would probably try to achieve. Um, I don't know if I would be more successful, but it don't know if I would be more successful, but it don't know if I would be more successful, but it would at least be a better attempt.

would at least be a better attempt. I also think that, like, being realistic I also think that, like, being realistic about, like, again, going back to about, like, again, going back to about, like, again, going back to empathy and understanding your type of empathy and understanding your type of empathy and understanding your type of B2B buyer, like, what do I B2B buyer, like, what do I B2B buyer, like, what do I need? Like, what does Paul need need? Like, what does Paul need need? Like, what does Paul need for his? I need a list. I for his? I need a list. I for his? I need a list. I need names. I need a text." need names. I need a text." need names. I need a text." I need, you know, maybe a I need, you know, maybe a I need, you know, maybe a warm introduction. You know, I warm introduction. You know, I warm introduction. You know, I need, you know, an understanding need, you know, an understanding need, you know, an understanding of the market that might generate a of the market that might generate a of the market that might generate a cold email response. So, like, if I'm cold email response. So, like, if I'm cold email response. So, like, if I'm going to spend 10 minutes with you, 15 going to spend 10 minutes with you, 15 going to spend 10 minutes with you, 15 minutes with you, I better get minutes with you, I better get minutes with you, I better get something out of it or I better achieve something out of it or I better achieve something out of it or I better achieve something, you know, from it. So, if something, you know, from it. So, if something, you know, from it. So, if you can give me value and you can give me value and you can give me value and commit to that, then I'll commit to that, then I'll commit to that, then I'll give you some of my time. It's very give you some of my time. It's very give you some of my time. It's very simple. Like, it's actually like simple. Like, it's actually like ... Yeah, it's not that it's not that ... Yeah, it's not that it's not that ... Yeah, it's not that it's not that complex. complex. complex. Yeah. No, I like that. Okay, Yeah. No, I like that. Okay, Yeah. No, I like that. Okay, that was great. I got a lot of what I that was great. I got a lot of what I that was great. I got a lot of what I hoped we would get from this hoped we would get from this hoped we would get from this conversation. I really appreciate you conversation. I really appreciate you conversation. I really appreciate you giving us your time. I think two giving us your time. I think two giving us your time. I think two final thoughts. One, final thoughts. One, final thoughts. One, favorite podcast right now? favorite podcast right now? favorite podcast right now? Ooh. That's good. I mean, yeah, Ooh. That's good. I mean, yeah, Ooh. That's good. I mean, yeah, definitely Lenny's Podcast. I definitely Lenny's Podcast. I definitely Lenny's Podcast. I really like it. I'm enjoying it. Yeah, really like it. I'm enjoying it. Yeah, really like it. I'm enjoying it. Yeah, I'm hooked. Maybe everyone I'm hooked. Maybe everyone I'm hooked. Maybe everyone says that, but it's really good.

says that, but it's really good. says that, but it's really good. No, it's really good. Um, okay No, it's really good. Um, okay , and the last thing, your brand and your , and the last thing, your brand and your , and the last thing, your brand and your website. They're literal humans, but all website. They're literal humans, but all website. They're literal humans, but all the drawings are of animal faces. the drawings are of animal faces. the drawings are of animal faces. Was that intentional? Was that intentional? Was that intentional? Yeah, you kind of get it. I mean Yeah, you kind of get it. I mean Yeah, you kind of get it. I mean , that was the initial inside joke , that was the initial inside joke , like, "Oh, we'll be literal humans, , like, "Oh, we'll be literal humans, , like, "Oh, we'll be literal humans, but they'll be animals doing but they'll be animals doing but they'll be animals doing human things." "And yes, it's been fun. human things." "And yes, it's been fun. human things." "And yes, it's been fun. Like, we have the drunken panda and several Like, we have the drunken panda and several Like, we have the drunken panda and several different characters. We don't do different characters. We don't do different characters. We don't do enough with it, but it's gotten us some enough with it, but it's gotten us some enough with it, but it's gotten us some good reviews in the good reviews in the good reviews in the branding department. So, yeah. branding department. So, yeah. branding department. So, yeah. Yes, I love the kind of irony about the Yes, I love the kind of irony about the Yes, I love the kind of irony about the Literal Humans part, so that Literal Humans part, so that Literal Humans part, so that 's great. Well, Paul runs Literal 's great. Well, Paul runs Literal 's great. Well, Paul runs Literal Humans. You can find him at Humans. You can find him at Humans. You can find him at literalhumans.com. And, of course, the literalhumans.com. And, of course, the literalhumans.com. And, of course, the Tech Can't Save Us podcast, which seems more Tech Can't Save Us podcast, which seems more Tech Can't Save Us podcast, which seems more necessary than ever. So, Paul, necessary than ever. So, Paul, necessary than ever. So, Paul, thank you very much. It was great to thank you very much. It was great to thank you very much. It was great to be here. Thank you so much for be here. Thank you so much for be here. Thank you so much for having me now, Fox. And yes, thank you for having me now, Fox. And yes, thank you for having me now, Fox. And yes, thank you for a great conversation. a great conversation. If you enjoyed what you heard, like, If you enjoyed what you heard, like, subscribe and follow for more from The subscribe and follow for more from The subscribe and follow for more from The Half Opportunity by visiting Half Opportunity by visiting Half Opportunity by visiting www.anthony.com."