What Led Seven Missing Women to the Horsch House of Horrors?

Hi, crime junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Hi, crime junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. Flowers. Flowers. >> And I'm Brit. >> And I'm Brit. >> And I'm Brit. >> And the story I have for you today is a >> And the story I have for you today is a >> And the story I have for you today is a case that's unfolding right now in North case that's unfolding right now in North case that's unfolding right now in North Philadelphia. At the center of it is a Philadelphia. At the center of it is a Philadelphia. At the center of it is a house that people have compared to house that people have compared to house that people have compared to something out of a horror movie. something out of a horror movie. something out of a horror movie. Connected to [music] at this moment at Connected to [music] at this moment at Connected to [music] at this moment at least seven missing women. As of this least seven missing women. As of this least seven missing women. As of this recording, nobody has figured out where recording, nobody has figured out where recording, nobody has figured out where these women are or exactly how the two these women are or exactly how the two these women are or exactly how the two men who lived in that house could be men who lived in that house could be men who lived in that house could be connected to their disappearances, if at connected to their disappearances, if at connected to their disappearances, if at all. [music] all. [music] all. [music] But there is still a lot to wrap your But there is still a lot to wrap your But there is still a lot to wrap your head around. And I think this might be head around. And I think this might be head around. And I think this might be one of the biggest cases of the year. one of the biggest cases of the year. one of the biggest cases of the year. So, since all of you have been in our So, since all of you have been in our So, since all of you have been in our DMs asking us to connect the dots and DMs asking us to connect the dots and DMs asking us to connect the dots and see what we could find out about Eugene see what we could find out about Eugene see what we could find out about Eugene and Raymond Horsch, this is the still and Raymond Horsch, this is the still and Raymond Horsch, this is the still developing story of the Horsch House of developing story of the Horsch House of developing story of the Horsch House of Horrors. Okay, Brit, before we jump in, like just Okay, Brit, before we jump in, like just a little bit of a caveat. So, like every a little bit of a caveat. So, like every a little bit of a caveat. So, like every episode, our investigative reporters and episode, our investigative reporters and episode, our investigative reporters and producers were pounding the pavement, producers were pounding the pavement, producers were pounding the pavement, like pulling records, reaching out to like pulling records, reaching out to like pulling records, reaching out to sources, but this one is a bit of a sources, but this one is a bit of a sources, but this one is a bit of a different game for us because we're not different game for us because we're not different game for us because we're not telling a story that is complete or telling a story that is complete or telling a story that is complete or [music] happened decades ago. We are [music] happened decades ago. We are [music] happened decades ago. We are literally getting new information every literally getting new information every literally getting new information every [music] single day. But I'm going to [music] single day. But I'm going to [music] single day. But I'm going to tell you what we know so far. So, this tell you what we know so far. So, this tell you what we know so far. So, this whole thing started unfolding just a few whole thing started unfolding just a few whole thing started unfolding just a few months ago on Friday, June 19th, 2026.

months ago on Friday, June 19th, 2026. months ago on Friday, June 19th, 2026. That's when a park ranger is near That's when a park ranger is near That's when a park ranger is near Independence Mall in Philadelphia, just Independence Mall in Philadelphia, just Independence Mall in Philadelphia, just [music] like steps from the Liberty [music] like steps from the Liberty [music] like steps from the Liberty Bell, when he spots this black BMW Bell, when he spots this black BMW Bell, when he spots this black BMW parked somewhere it shouldn't be. So, he parked somewhere it shouldn't be. So, he parked somewhere it shouldn't be. So, he walks over to check it out, and that's walks over to check it out, and that's walks over to check it out, and that's when he hears a woman's voice from when he hears a woman's voice from when he hears a woman's voice from inside the car saying, "You're going to inside the car saying, "You're going to inside the car saying, "You're going to hurt me." Now, he gets even closer so he hurt me." Now, he gets even closer so he hurt me." Now, he gets even closer so he can look through the car's window. And can look through the car's window. And can look through the car's window. And in the driver's seat, he sees this in the driver's seat, he sees this in the driver's seat, he sees this middle-aged man and then the woman. And middle-aged man and then the woman. And middle-aged man and then the woman. And just one look at them tells this ranger just one look at them tells this ranger just one look at them tells this ranger that this is probably going to turn into that this is probably going to turn into that this is probably going to turn into more than just like a simple request for more than just like a simple request for more than just like a simple request for them to move their car because both of them to move their car because both of them to move their car because both of them have visible soores, like the kind them have visible soores, like the kind them have visible soores, like the kind he knows sometimes comes [music] from he knows sometimes comes [music] from he knows sometimes comes [music] from drug use. They also have some drug drug use. They also have some drug drug use. They also have some drug paraphernalia that he can spot through paraphernalia that he can spot through paraphernalia that he can spot through the window. So, he asked them both for the window. So, he asked them both for the window. So, he asked them both for IDs. [music] IDs. [music] IDs. [music] And this is where things go from routine And this is where things go from routine And this is where things go from routine to the bizarre because what they end up to the bizarre because what they end up to the bizarre because what they end up learning is that both of these people learning is that both of these people learning is that both of these people have [music] fake IDs on them. The have [music] fake IDs on them. The have [music] fake IDs on them. The Mayans is a fake DEA badge which is like Mayans is a fake DEA badge which is like Mayans is a fake DEA badge which is like no good.

no good. no good. >> This is definitely not just like a hey >> This is definitely not just like a hey >> This is definitely not just like a hey move your car situation with a fake move your car situation with a fake move your car situation with a fake [music] federal badge. But the woman's [music] federal badge. But the woman's [music] federal badge. But the woman's is somehow even more concerning because is somehow even more concerning because is somehow even more concerning because even though her ID looks legit at first even though her ID looks legit at first even though her ID looks legit at first [music] glance, like with her picture on [music] glance, like with her picture on [music] glance, like with her picture on it and everything, when the park ranger it and everything, when the park ranger it and everything, when the park ranger runs it, it turns out that the runs it, it turns out that the runs it, it turns out that the information on the ID belongs to a woman information on the ID belongs to a woman information on the ID belongs to a woman named [music] Blair Tanzelli. And Blair named [music] Blair Tanzelli. And Blair named [music] Blair Tanzelli. And Blair Tanzelli has an open missing person's Tanzelli has an open missing person's Tanzelli has an open missing person's case [music] on her. The real Blair was case [music] on her. The real Blair was case [music] on her. The real Blair was last heard from more than 3 years before last heard from more than 3 years before last heard from more than 3 years before this in August of 2022 and then she had this in August of 2022 and then she had this in August of 2022 and then she had been officially reported missing in been officially reported missing in been officially reported missing in February of 2023. February of 2023. February of 2023. Now they identify the man that she's Now they identify the man that she's Now they identify the man that she's with as 44year-old Eugene Horsch. So with as 44year-old Eugene Horsch. So with as 44year-old Eugene Horsch. So this is now officially above the park this is now officially above the park this is now officially above the park rangers pay grade. So police get called rangers pay grade. So police get called rangers pay grade. So police get called in and they bring in the real DEA in and they bring in the real DEA in and they bring in the real DEA agents. And once Eugene is taken into agents. And once Eugene is taken into agents. And once Eugene is taken into custody, he admits to officers that he custody, he admits to officers that he custody, he admits to officers that he is a convicted felon, which makes the is a convicted felon, which makes the is a convicted felon, which makes the other stuff that they find on him and in other stuff that they find on him and in other stuff that they find on him and in his car real bad news for Eugene. He's his car real bad news for Eugene. He's his car real bad news for Eugene. He's got a switchblade and a glass pipe on got a switchblade and a glass pipe on got a switchblade and a glass pipe on him. And in the car is crack cocaine, him. And in the car is crack cocaine, him. And in the car is crack cocaine, another switchblade, a cattle prod, a another switchblade, a cattle prod, a another switchblade, a cattle prod, a collapsible baton, and a set of collapsible baton, and a set of collapsible baton, and a set of handcuffs. Oh, and by the way, two handcuffs. Oh, and by the way, two handcuffs. Oh, and by the way, two loaded guns. At least one with the loaded guns. At least one with the loaded guns. At least one with the serial number filed off. I mean, I was serial number filed off. I mean, I was serial number filed off. I mean, I was going to say huge red flag, but that's going to say huge red flag, but that's going to say huge red flag, but that's like a barrage of red flags one after

like a barrage of red flags one after like a barrage of red flags one after another. another. another. >> Now, authorities learned that Eugene >> Now, authorities learned that Eugene >> Now, authorities learned that Eugene owns a house at 417 West Chu Avenue in a owns a house at 417 West Chu Avenue in a owns a house at 417 West Chu Avenue in a neighborhood called Alni. So, within neighborhood called Alni. So, within neighborhood called Alni. So, within hours, law enforcement's headed there hours, law enforcement's headed there hours, law enforcement's headed there with a search warrant in hand to see with a search warrant in hand to see with a search warrant in hand to see what else Eugene might have going on. what else Eugene might have going on. what else Eugene might have going on. And listen, moral of the story, And listen, moral of the story, And listen, moral of the story, sometimes you can judge a book by its sometimes you can judge a book by its sometimes you can judge a book by its cover. Because even from the outside, cover. Because even from the outside, cover. Because even from the outside, this house, a crumbling three-story this house, a crumbling three-story this house, a crumbling three-story brick [music] twin, is bad vibes. I brick [music] twin, is bad vibes. I brick [music] twin, is bad vibes. I mean, the second and third floor windows mean, the second and third floor windows mean, the second and third floor windows are boarded up. There are bars on the are boarded up. There are bars on the are boarded up. There are bars on the first floor windows, and there's a first floor windows, and there's a first floor windows, and there's a security camera pointed right at the security camera pointed right at the security camera pointed right at the street. But truly, as bad as it looked street. But truly, as bad as it looked street. But truly, as bad as it looked from the outside, I don't think anyone from the outside, I don't think anyone from the outside, I don't think anyone could have imagined that what they were could have imagined that what they were could have imagined that what they were walking into would be so disturbing that walking into would be so disturbing that walking into would be so disturbing that this house would become infamously known this house would become infamously known this house would become infamously known as a house of horrors. Cuz this was not as a house of horrors. Cuz this was not as a house of horrors. Cuz this was not a quick in-n-out search. Police ended up a quick in-n-out search. Police ended up a quick in-n-out search. Police ended up securing the whole neighborhood. securing the whole neighborhood. securing the whole neighborhood. Investigators in hazmat suits were going Investigators in hazmat suits were going Investigators in hazmat suits were going in and out of the house over the course in and out of the house over the course in and out of the house over the course of days, which gets the attention of of days, which gets the attention of of days, which gets the attention of local news and social media. [music] local news and social media. [music] local news and social media. [music] Eventually, Deputy Police Commissioner Eventually, Deputy Police Commissioner Eventually, Deputy Police Commissioner Frank Venor gets in front of cameras for Frank Venor gets in front of cameras for Frank Venor gets in front of cameras for a press conference. Venor says that they a press conference. Venor says that they a press conference. Venor says that they found [music] some stuff that I think found [music] some stuff that I think found [music] some stuff that I think would be pretty normal for a search would be pretty normal for a search would be pretty normal for a search involving the DEA, right? Like a gun, involving the DEA, right? Like a gun, involving the DEA, right? Like a gun, over a 100 pieces of ballistic evidence, over a 100 pieces of ballistic evidence, over a 100 pieces of ballistic evidence, [music] a marijuana grow operation. But [music] a marijuana grow operation. But [music] a marijuana grow operation. But then there were other things that they then there were other things that they then there were other things that they couldn't quite [music] explain. Hidden couldn't quite [music] explain. Hidden couldn't quite [music] explain. Hidden compartments, a makeshift laboratory

compartments, a makeshift laboratory compartments, a makeshift laboratory setup of some sorts in the basement. I setup of some sorts in the basement. I setup of some sorts in the basement. I mean, so many chemicals that mean, so many chemicals that mean, so many chemicals that investigators say some could be investigators say some could be investigators say some could be dangerous if the wrong ones got mixed dangerous if the wrong ones got mixed dangerous if the wrong ones got mixed together. And a 55gallon drum hooked up together. And a 55gallon drum hooked up together. And a 55gallon drum hooked up to the water lines that like ran down to the water lines that like ran down to the water lines that like ran down into a hole in the ground. What does into a hole in the ground. What does into a hole in the ground. What does that even mean? So what was going that even mean? So what was going that even mean? So what was going through those lines or where it was through those lines or where it was through those lines or where it was going, nobody has officially said. Venor going, nobody has officially said. Venor going, nobody has officially said. Venor called it a quote strange setup, but I called it a quote strange setup, but I called it a quote strange setup, but I think Eugene could have maybe been think Eugene could have maybe been think Eugene could have maybe been making something, maybe irrigating making something, maybe irrigating making something, maybe irrigating something. I mean, remember, we've got a something. I mean, remember, we've got a something. I mean, remember, we've got a grow operation. So it could have just grow operation. So it could have just grow operation. So it could have just been part of a system for watering been part of a system for watering been part of a system for watering plants. I mean, this early on, they plants. I mean, this early on, they plants. I mean, this early on, they can't say what any of this means. They can't say what any of this means. They can't say what any of this means. They just started processing this [music] just started processing this [music] just started processing this [music] house, and they still have a lot of work house, and they still have a lot of work house, and they still have a lot of work ahead of them. I mean, there are a ahead of them. I mean, there are a ahead of them. I mean, there are a thousand questions from reporters and thousand questions from reporters and thousand questions from reporters and from the community after this, but few from the community after this, but few from the community after this, but few answers are [music] given, at least not answers are [music] given, at least not answers are [music] given, at least not that day. But the slow drip of that day. But the slow drip of that day. But the slow drip of information doesn't always come from information doesn't always come from information doesn't always come from behind a podium. Local reporters, behind a podium. Local reporters, behind a podium. Local reporters, working sources begin to shine a light working sources begin to shine a light working sources begin to shine a light on the [music] true scope of what was on the [music] true scope of what was on the [music] true scope of what was found in that house. Now, Max Marin over found in that house. Now, Max Marin over found in that house. Now, Max Marin over at the Philadelphia Inquirer spoke to us at the Philadelphia Inquirer spoke to us at the Philadelphia Inquirer spoke to us for this episode. He has been working for this episode. He has been working for this episode. He has been working with this core team of four, including with this core team of four, including with this core team of four, including him, who have been dedicated [music] to him, who have been dedicated [music] to him, who have been dedicated [music] to this case. So, it's him, Ryan W. Briggs, this case. So, it's him, Ryan W. Briggs, this case. So, it's him, Ryan W. Briggs, Ellie Rushing, and Barbara Laker, among Ellie Rushing, and Barbara Laker, among Ellie Rushing, and Barbara Laker, among others. Now, Max told us that when this others. Now, Max told us that when this others. Now, Max told us that when this first broke, they honestly thought that first broke, they honestly thought that first broke, they honestly thought that this was going to be some big drug case.

this was going to be some big drug case. this was going to be some big drug case. But once the details started coming in, But once the details started coming in, But once the details started coming in, a missing woman's ID, a 55gallon drum in a missing woman's ID, a 55gallon drum in a missing woman's ID, a 55gallon drum in the basement. He said it was hard to not the basement. He said it was hard to not the basement. He said it was hard to not let your mind go to dark places. [music] let your mind go to dark places. [music] let your mind go to dark places. [music] And the more that kept coming out, the And the more that kept coming out, the And the more that kept coming out, the darker it got. Sometime after that first darker it got. Sometime after that first darker it got. Sometime after that first press conference, police [music] sources press conference, police [music] sources press conference, police [music] sources tell reporters that they found something tell reporters that they found something tell reporters that they found something else. What looks like a significant else. What looks like a significant else. What looks like a significant amount [music] amount [music] amount [music] of blood. No other detail. There are of blood. No other detail. There are of blood. No other detail. There are also five urns containing cremated also five urns containing cremated also five urns containing cremated remains. Now, one of them has a name on remains. Now, one of them has a name on remains. Now, one of them has a name on it, a relative of Eugene, it, a relative of Eugene, it, a relative of Eugene, >> but the other four >> but the other four >> but the other four >> mystery. Venor said that it could be >> mystery. Venor said that it could be >> mystery. Venor said that it could be other relatives, but truly they didn't other relatives, but truly they didn't other relatives, but truly they didn't know. But this other thing that comes know. But this other thing that comes know. But this other thing that comes out is a bit harder to just like explain out is a bit harder to just like explain out is a bit harder to just like explain away. They find a handwritten [music] away. They find a handwritten [music] away. They find a handwritten [music] letter, like real disturbing stuff. It letter, like real disturbing stuff. It letter, like real disturbing stuff. It describes hurting people. It references describes hurting people. It references describes hurting people. It references zip ties, a drum, and serial killer Ted zip ties, a drum, and serial killer Ted zip ties, a drum, and serial killer Ted Bundy. And this is when people start Bundy. And this is when people start Bundy. And this is when people start [music] going wild and the story begins [music] going wild and the story begins [music] going wild and the story begins to spread beyond the Philadelphia area, to spread beyond the Philadelphia area, to spread beyond the Philadelphia area, which is why Deputy Police Commissioner which is why Deputy Police Commissioner which is why Deputy Police Commissioner [music] Venor moved fast to shut down [music] Venor moved fast to shut down [music] Venor moved fast to shut down some rumors spreading online because some rumors spreading online because some rumors spreading online because already people were saying that there already people were saying that there already people were saying that there were bodies in the house. But he assured were bodies in the house. But he assured were bodies in the house. But he assured reporters nothing like that had been reporters nothing like that had been reporters nothing like that had been found anywhere on the property [music] found anywhere on the property [music] found anywhere on the property [music] that they know of yet. But the truth is that they know of yet. But the truth is that they know of yet. But the truth is what they had found had them make the what they had found had them make the what they had found had them make the decision to have homicide detectives

decision to have homicide detectives decision to have homicide detectives leading this up. [music] So you can leading this up. [music] So you can leading this up. [music] So you can imagine that nothing really quieted imagine that nothing really quieted imagine that nothing really quieted down. The public was clamoring for more down. The public was clamoring for more down. The public was clamoring for more information about the man at the center information about the man at the center information about the man at the center of this and about the missing woman of this and about the missing woman of this and about the missing woman whose stolen information seemed to whose stolen information seemed to whose stolen information seemed to really kick this investigation off, really kick this investigation off, really kick this investigation off, Blair Tanzelli. Now, among all the Blair Tanzelli. Now, among all the Blair Tanzelli. Now, among all the things at the house, investigators also things at the house, investigators also things at the house, investigators also found several [music] fake IDs in her found several [music] fake IDs in her found several [music] fake IDs in her name, plus bank cards for her. And when name, plus bank cards for her. And when name, plus bank cards for her. And when they'd spoken to the woman from the car they'd spoken to the woman from the car they'd spoken to the woman from the car who had been carrying the ID with who had been carrying the ID with who had been carrying the ID with Blair's name on it, she tells them that Blair's name on it, she tells them that Blair's name on it, she tells them that she doesn't even know Blair. [music] she doesn't even know Blair. [music] she doesn't even know Blair. [music] She says that Eugene is the one who made She says that Eugene is the one who made She says that Eugene is the one who made the fake ID for her using her own the fake ID for her using her own the fake ID for her using her own picture and Blair's name. He told her picture and Blair's name. He told her picture and Blair's name. He told her that she could use it if she ever got that she could use it if she ever got that she could use it if she ever got pulled over because she had like her own pulled over because she had like her own pulled over because she had like her own warrants out on her. But she said there warrants out on her. But she said there warrants out on her. But she said there was something odd about the way that was something odd about the way that was something odd about the way that Eugene talked about Blair. Something Eugene talked about Blair. Something Eugene talked about Blair. Something that made her think that something bad that made her think that something bad that made her think that something bad might have happened to her. Oh, and by might have happened to her. Oh, and by might have happened to her. Oh, and by the way, she also said that although the way, she also said that although the way, she also said that although Eugene never actually hurt her, he did Eugene never actually hurt her, he did Eugene never actually hurt her, he did [music] once tell her that he knew the [music] once tell her that he knew the [music] once tell her that he knew the chemicals needed to dissolve human chemicals needed to dissolve human chemicals needed to dissolve human bodies. Oh, by that point, investigators bodies. Oh, by that point, investigators bodies. Oh, by that point, investigators [music] [music] [music] have to be having the same fear that have to be having the same fear that have to be having the same fear that this woman did, that something bad this woman did, that something bad this woman did, that something bad happened to Blair Tanzelli, maybe even happened to Blair Tanzelli, maybe even happened to Blair Tanzelli, maybe even in that house.

in that house. in that house. >> And when they look into her missing >> And when they look into her missing >> And when they look into her missing person case, they see a potential tie person case, they see a potential tie person case, they see a potential tie that had [music] been there all along. that had [music] been there all along. that had [music] been there all along. So, by the time Blair disappeared in So, by the time Blair disappeared in So, by the time Blair disappeared in 2022, she [music] was estranged from a 2022, she [music] was estranged from a 2022, she [music] was estranged from a lot of her family. She had struggled lot of her family. She had struggled lot of her family. She had struggled with opioid addiction for years and she with opioid addiction for years and she with opioid addiction for years and she had cycled in and out of jail on drug had cycled in and out of jail on drug had cycled in and out of jail on drug charges and [music] charges related to charges and [music] charges related to charges and [music] charges related to sex work. So it was not unusual for her sex work. So it was not unusual for her sex work. So it was not unusual for her to go MIA, which is why nobody really to go MIA, which is why nobody really to go MIA, which is why nobody really worried at first when she kind of just worried at first when she kind of just worried at first when she kind of just dropped [music] off. But when months dropped [music] off. But when months dropped [music] off. But when months went by without so much as a sighting of went by without so much as a sighting of went by without so much as a sighting of her, a friend decided to report her her, a friend decided to report her her, a friend decided to report her missing. [music] And according to missing. [music] And according to missing. [music] And according to reporting by the Philadelphia Inquirer, reporting by the Philadelphia Inquirer, reporting by the Philadelphia Inquirer, when they do, they tell police that when they do, they tell police that when they do, they tell police that Blair was last known to be at the house Blair was last known to be at the house Blair was last known to be at the house of some sketchy guy who apparently of some sketchy guy who apparently of some sketchy guy who apparently scared her. And where did Sketchy Guy scared her. And where did Sketchy Guy scared her. And where did Sketchy Guy live? The friend gave police the exact live? The friend gave police the exact live? The friend gave police the exact [music] [music] [music] address of the horse house in the Alni address of the horse house in the Alni address of the horse house in the Alni neighborhood. Ding ding ding. neighborhood. Ding ding ding. neighborhood. Ding ding ding. >> Now, who was that sketchy man? The >> Now, who was that sketchy man? The >> Now, who was that sketchy man? The friend who made the report didn't give friend who made the report didn't give friend who made the report didn't give [music] a name.

[music] a name. [music] a name. So, let's start with the name on the So, let's start with the name on the So, let's start with the name on the house, house, house, >> Eugene Horsch. Now, nobody has said that >> Eugene Horsch. Now, nobody has said that >> Eugene Horsch. Now, nobody has said that he is the man Blair's friend was talking he is the man Blair's friend was talking he is the man Blair's friend was talking about, but since it's his house and all about, but since it's his house and all about, but since it's his house and all this started in his car, this started in his car, this started in his car, >> investigators start digging into him. >> investigators start digging into him. >> investigators start digging into him. So, here's what we know about Eugene. He So, here's what we know about Eugene. He So, here's what we know about Eugene. He grew up in Bucks [music] County, and by grew up in Bucks [music] County, and by grew up in Bucks [music] County, and by all accounts, at least as a kid, he all accounts, at least as a kid, he all accounts, at least as a kid, he seemed pretty normal. His childhood seemed pretty normal. His childhood seemed pretty normal. His childhood friend, Jeremy Perry, spoke with one of friend, Jeremy Perry, spoke with one of friend, Jeremy Perry, spoke with one of our reporters and said that Eugene was our reporters and said that Eugene was our reporters and said that Eugene was actually one of the smartest kids that actually one of the smartest kids that actually one of the smartest kids that he [music] knew. Jeremy lived down the he [music] knew. Jeremy lived down the he [music] knew. Jeremy lived down the street from Eugene back in the day, like street from Eugene back in the day, like street from Eugene back in the day, like not in the Aln neighborhood, but in an not in the Aln neighborhood, but in an not in the Aln neighborhood, but in an area called Shaondant, where Eugene area called Shaondant, where Eugene area called Shaondant, where Eugene mostly grew up. The two hung out mostly grew up. The two hung out mostly grew up. The two hung out constantly growing up. And Jeremy said constantly growing up. And Jeremy said constantly growing up. And Jeremy said that things were all good right up until that things were all good right up until that things were all good right up until high school. That's when Eugene started high school. That's when Eugene started high school. That's when Eugene started gravitating toward harder drugs, started gravitating toward harder drugs, started gravitating toward harder drugs, started hanging out with a different crowd, and hanging out with a different crowd, and hanging out with a different crowd, and the two of them [music] just kind of the two of them [music] just kind of the two of them [music] just kind of drifted apart. But sometime before they drifted apart. But sometime before they drifted apart. But sometime before they did, there is this thing that happened did, there is this thing that happened did, there is this thing that happened that has always stuck with Jeremy. At that has always stuck with Jeremy. At that has always stuck with Jeremy. At some point, [music] some point, [music] some point, [music] and it's a little unclear exactly when, and it's a little unclear exactly when, and it's a little unclear exactly when, Eugene's childhood home in Sha caught Eugene's childhood home in Sha caught Eugene's childhood home in Sha caught fire. It got [music] completely tore fire. It got [music] completely tore fire. It got [music] completely tore down, rebuilt from the ground up, which down, rebuilt from the ground up, which down, rebuilt from the ground up, which like, okay, happens. But it's what was like, okay, happens. But it's what was like, okay, happens. But it's what was added during the rebuild [music] that added during the rebuild [music] that added during the rebuild [music] that was always strange to Jeremy. He was always strange to Jeremy. He was always strange to Jeremy. He remembers this like steel door built remembers this like steel door built remembers this like steel door built right into the basement walls. So, of right into the basement walls. So, of right into the basement walls. So, of course, he like had to ask his buddy course, he like had to ask his buddy course, he like had to ask his buddy about it. And he was told that it was about it. And he was told that it was about it. And he was told that it was just going to be a safe room, like a a

just going to be a safe room, like a a just going to be a safe room, like a a panic room, which was odd to him, but panic room, which was odd to him, but panic room, which was odd to him, but >> as a kid, he didn't really want to push. >> as a kid, he didn't really want to push. >> as a kid, he didn't really want to push. Right now, after Jeremy and Eugene Right now, after Jeremy and Eugene Right now, after Jeremy and Eugene drifted apart, it seems like Eugene kept drifted apart, it seems like Eugene kept drifted apart, it seems like Eugene kept drifting farther and farther from drifting farther and farther from drifting farther and farther from [music] center. According to 6 ABC's [music] center. According to 6 ABC's [music] center. According to 6 ABC's reporting, in 2004, Eugene pleaded reporting, in 2004, Eugene pleaded reporting, in 2004, Eugene pleaded guilty to aggravated assault after a DUI guilty to aggravated assault after a DUI guilty to aggravated assault after a DUI crash. In 2013, a separate [music] crash. In 2013, a separate [music] crash. In 2013, a separate [music] traffic stop led police to that house in traffic stop led police to that house in traffic stop led police to that house in Alni. He's living there by that point. Alni. He's living there by that point. Alni. He's living there by that point. And inside, they discovered a marijuana And inside, they discovered a marijuana And inside, they discovered a marijuana grow operation worth almost $2 million. grow operation worth almost $2 million. grow operation worth almost $2 million. Then in 2025 when first responders were Then in 2025 when first responders were Then in 2025 when first responders were responding to a fire at the Alley house. responding to a fire at the Alley house. responding to a fire at the Alley house. >> Wait, another one? >> Wait, another one? >> Wait, another one? >> Yeah, different house now, but like >> Yeah, different house now, but like >> Yeah, different house now, but like another house fire, but I I don't I another house fire, but I I don't I another house fire, but I I don't I don't know what it means. Anyways, while don't know what it means. Anyways, while don't know what it means. Anyways, while firefighters are tending to that, they firefighters are tending to that, they firefighters are tending to that, they expose yet another grow operation plus expose yet another grow operation plus expose yet another grow operation plus three guns with the serial numbers three guns with the serial numbers three guns with the serial numbers removed. [music] removed. [music] removed. [music] So overall, he has spent about five or So overall, he has spent about five or So overall, he has spent about five or so years behind bars spread across his so years behind bars spread across his so years behind bars spread across his entire adult life. And by 2026, he was entire adult life. And by 2026, he was entire adult life. And by 2026, he was on probation. So Eugene is far from on probation. So Eugene is far from on probation. So Eugene is far from squeaky clean. [music] But when his squeaky clean. [music] But when his squeaky clean. [music] But when his attorney, Jerome Brown, started speaking attorney, Jerome Brown, started speaking attorney, Jerome Brown, started speaking up, he says that this whole thing was up, he says that this whole thing was up, he says that this whole thing was getting overblown. Quote, "Much to do getting overblown. Quote, "Much to do getting overblown. Quote, "Much to do about nothing." Says that he would be about nothing." Says that he would be about nothing." Says that he would be shocked if police found any real harm shocked if police found any real harm shocked if police found any real harm tied to the house. But he kind of tied to the house. But he kind of tied to the house. But he kind of insinuates, you know, if they did, that insinuates, you know, if they did, that insinuates, you know, if they did, that still doesn't mean anything for his still doesn't mean anything for his still doesn't mean anything for his client because he says he thinks that a client because he says he thinks that a client because he says he thinks that a lot of the chemistry stuff belonged to

lot of the chemistry stuff belonged to lot of the chemistry stuff belonged to somebody else entirely because, as you somebody else entirely because, as you somebody else entirely because, as you know, Britt, there was another person know, Britt, there was another person know, Britt, there was another person who also lived in that house for a long who also lived in that house for a long who also lived in that house for a long time. Somebody with what attorney Brown time. Somebody with what attorney Brown time. Somebody with what attorney Brown calls a very interesting past. Dark Down [music] East began with one Dark Down [music] East began with one microphone and a simple idea. There's microphone and a simple idea. There's microphone and a simple idea. There's always more to the story than what made always more to the story than what made always more to the story than what made the [music] news. As a lifelong New the [music] news. As a lifelong New the [music] news. As a lifelong New Englander, I wanted to uncover the Englander, I wanted to uncover the Englander, I wanted to uncover the details, unexpected turns, and human details, unexpected turns, and human details, unexpected turns, and human stories behind the cases that have stories behind the cases that have stories behind the cases that have stayed with our communities for years. stayed with our communities for years. stayed with our communities for years. [music] [music] [music] I'm Kylie Low and this is Dark Down I'm Kylie Low and this is Dark Down I'm Kylie Low and this is Dark Down East. The person with a very interesting past The person with a very interesting past [music] who Eugene's attorney is [music] who Eugene's attorney is [music] who Eugene's attorney is referring to is Eugene's very own referring to is Eugene's very own referring to is Eugene's very own father. [music] But he's deceased by father. [music] But he's deceased by father. [music] But he's deceased by 2026. 2026. 2026. >> Yes. So Raymond Horsch, also known as >> Yes. So Raymond Horsch, also known as >> Yes. So Raymond Horsch, also known as Ray or RC, died in 2025, like a year Ray or RC, died in 2025, like a year Ray or RC, died in 2025, like a year before any of this exploded. But this before any of this exploded. But this before any of this exploded. But this dude, now this is the kind of guy that dude, now this is the kind of guy that dude, now this is the kind of guy that you would expect to live in a house with you would expect to live in a house with you would expect to live in a house with chemicals and drums and letters about chemicals and drums and letters about chemicals and drums and letters about Ted Bundy. But I want you to just like Ted Bundy. But I want you to just like Ted Bundy. But I want you to just like read his author bio for people. This is read his author bio for people. This is read his author bio for people. This is what is on some of his books, including what is on some of his books, including what is on some of his books, including a book that he put out in 2003 called a book that he put out in 2003 called a book that he put out in 2003 called Erato. So his bio Erato. So his bio Erato. So his bio like he has a hand in writing describes like he has a hand in writing describes like he has a hand in writing describes him as quote [music] him as quote [music] him as quote [music] an artist, filmmaker, composer, writer,

an artist, filmmaker, composer, writer, an artist, filmmaker, composer, writer, porn performer, drug smuggler, sometime porn performer, drug smuggler, sometime porn performer, drug smuggler, sometime political activist, [music] art forger, political activist, [music] art forger, political activist, [music] art forger, counterfeitter, pot grower, air show counterfeitter, pot grower, air show counterfeitter, pot grower, air show pilot, [music] army deserter, fugitive, pilot, [music] army deserter, fugitive, pilot, [music] army deserter, fugitive, sociopath, sociopath, sociopath, ex-convict, [music] ex-convict, [music] ex-convict, [music] and allout villain. The thing is, this and allout villain. The thing is, this and allout villain. The thing is, this is not just something that he wrote for is not just something that he wrote for is not just something that he wrote for a [music] book jacket either. We tracked a [music] book jacket either. We tracked a [music] book jacket either. We tracked down this reporter at Philly's NPR down this reporter at Philly's NPR down this reporter at Philly's NPR station, WH YY News. His name is Peter station, WH YY News. His name is Peter station, WH YY News. His name is Peter Crims. And back in the day, he did this Crims. And back in the day, he did this Crims. And back in the day, he did this like casual interview with Raymond for a like casual interview with Raymond for a like casual interview with Raymond for a story he was working on about vintage story he was working on about vintage story he was working on about vintage erotic film screenings around Philly. erotic film screenings around Philly. erotic film screenings around Philly. Like his interview with him happened in Like his interview with him happened in Like his interview with him happened in like 2014. And it included like he was like 2014. And it included like he was like 2014. And it included like he was talking to him about a film that Raymond talking to him about a film that Raymond talking to him about a film that Raymond had made in 1973. and [music] he found had made in 1973. and [music] he found had made in 1973. and [music] he found him so interesting that basically he him so interesting that basically he him so interesting that basically he decided to interview him again for a decided to interview him again for a decided to interview him again for a book idea about Philly's criminal book idea about Philly's criminal book idea about Philly's criminal underworld in the ' 60s and ' 70s. So underworld in the ' 60s and ' 70s. So underworld in the ' 60s and ' 70s. So years later, Peter played a clip of his years later, Peter played a clip of his years later, Peter played a clip of his interview with Raymond on WHY News's interview with Raymond on WHY News's interview with Raymond on WHY News's podcast and you have to hear him in his podcast and you have to hear him in his podcast and you have to hear him in his own words cuz I think it's chilling.

own words cuz I think it's chilling. own words cuz I think it's chilling. [sighs] [sighs] [sighs] >> I mean, basically >> I mean, basically >> I mean, basically I'm a sociopath, always have been. and I'm a sociopath, always have been. and I'm a sociopath, always have been. and it was a nice way to express it was a nice way to express it was a nice way to express myself. myself. myself. >> What makes you describe yourself as a >> What makes you describe yourself as a >> What makes you describe yourself as a sociopath? sociopath? sociopath? >> I don't like disagree with society. I >> I don't like disagree with society. I >> I don't like disagree with society. I think civilization think civilization think civilization is the uh biggest evolutionary mistake is the uh biggest evolutionary mistake is the uh biggest evolutionary mistake ever made. ever made. ever made. >> Even this is not a performance that he >> Even this is not a performance that he >> Even this is not a performance that he puts on. So during that interview you puts on. So during that interview you puts on. So during that interview you just heard, Peter told us that the two just heard, Peter told us that the two just heard, Peter told us that the two of them were having this totally normal of them were having this totally normal of them were having this totally normal lunch where Raymond's like munching on lunch where Raymond's like munching on lunch where Raymond's like munching on dips. Except Peter said like completely dips. Except Peter said like completely dips. Except Peter said like completely deranged things were just coming out of deranged things were just coming out of deranged things were just coming out of Raymond's mouth the entire time. Raymond's mouth the entire time. Raymond's mouth the entire time. Surprisingly though, Peter told us that Surprisingly though, Peter told us that Surprisingly though, Peter told us that he didn't find Raymon creepy or he didn't find Raymon creepy or he didn't find Raymon creepy or threatening at all. He said he never threatening at all. He said he never threatening at all. He said he never felt like he was in danger. This guy was felt like he was in danger. This guy was felt like he was in danger. This guy was just calmly telling him about running a just calmly telling him about running a just calmly telling him about running a meth empire he compared to Breaking Bad, meth empire he compared to Breaking Bad, meth empire he compared to Breaking Bad, fleeing to New Zealand under some fleeing to New Zealand under some fleeing to New Zealand under some scientist name, crashing a Reno air show scientist name, crashing a Reno air show scientist name, crashing a Reno air show uninvited in a jet that he said he uninvited in a jet that he said he uninvited in a jet that he said he bought from the author of Jonathan bought from the author of Jonathan bought from the author of Jonathan Livingston Seagull. All well, by the Livingston Seagull. All well, by the Livingston Seagull. All well, by the way, he's like just sitting there eating way, he's like just sitting there eating way, he's like just sitting there eating hummus. [laughter] hummus. [laughter] hummus. [laughter] >> Okay, but did did any of that like check >> Okay, but did did any of that like check >> Okay, but did did any of that like check out though? So Peter actually asked a out though? So Peter actually asked a out though? So Peter actually asked a Philadelphia Inquirer reporter that same Philadelphia Inquirer reporter that same Philadelphia Inquirer reporter that same question once this case broke. And the question once this case broke. And the question once this case broke. And the answer was mostly yes. New Zealand, a answer was mostly yes. New Zealand, a answer was mostly yes. New Zealand, a counterfeiting operation, the meth lab, counterfeiting operation, the meth lab, counterfeiting operation, the meth lab, he even owned a real jet, it all seems he even owned a real jet, it all seems he even owned a real jet, it all seems to be confirmed. Now, some of the

to be confirmed. Now, some of the to be confirmed. Now, some of the smaller, more colorful details, nobody smaller, more colorful details, nobody smaller, more colorful details, nobody really knows, but the core of it checks really knows, but the core of it checks really knows, but the core of it checks out. From everything that our team out. From everything that our team out. From everything that our team learned about this guy, he genuinely learned about this guy, he genuinely learned about this guy, he genuinely seemed like somebody who, like his son, seemed like somebody who, like his son, seemed like somebody who, like his son, started out as a really bright kid, started out as a really bright kid, started out as a really bright kid, [music] but by his 30s, he was deep into [music] but by his 30s, he was deep into [music] but by his 30s, he was deep into crime. Bad checks, counterfeiting, that crime. Bad checks, counterfeiting, that crime. Bad checks, counterfeiting, that meth lab. He was running out of his own meth lab. He was running out of his own meth lab. He was running out of his own home in the 70s. [music] home in the 70s. [music] home in the 70s. [music] And when it looked like he was about to And when it looked like he was about to And when it looked like he was about to get caught, he fled the country get caught, he fled the country get caught, he fled the country entirely. New Zealand, living under fake entirely. New Zealand, living under fake entirely. New Zealand, living under fake [music] names for years now. This is [music] names for years now. This is [music] names for years now. This is right around the same period when his right around the same period when his right around the same period when his son Eugene was born while Raymond was son Eugene was born while Raymond was son Eugene was born while Raymond was like still on the run. So Raymond like still on the run. So Raymond like still on the run. So Raymond eventually ended up back in the US and eventually ended up back in the US and eventually ended up back in the US and got caught. And according to the got caught. And according to the got caught. And according to the Philadelphia Inquirer in 1985 as part of Philadelphia Inquirer in 1985 as part of Philadelphia Inquirer in 1985 as part of his sentencing, his defense team had him his sentencing, his defense team had him his sentencing, his defense team had him go through a psych [music] evaluation. go through a psych [music] evaluation. go through a psych [music] evaluation. And I found their conclusions very And I found their conclusions very And I found their conclusions very interesting. The psychologist report interesting. The psychologist report interesting. The psychologist report painted a picture of a man obsessed painted a picture of a man obsessed painted a picture of a man obsessed [music] with control, constantly working [music] with control, constantly working [music] with control, constantly working an angle on people around him. It said an angle on people around him. It said an angle on people around him. It said that he was quote consumed by anger that he was quote consumed by anger that he was quote consumed by anger [music] and the evaluation points toward [music] and the evaluation points toward [music] and the evaluation points toward bipolar disorder and a paranoid bipolar disorder and a paranoid bipolar disorder and a paranoid personality disorder. Now, he got personality disorder. Now, he got personality disorder. Now, he got sentenced to 3 years in prison. And even sentenced to 3 years in prison. And even sentenced to 3 years in prison. And even though he would end up getting out though he would end up getting out though he would end up getting out early, for those first few years, early, for those first few years, early, for those first few years, Eugene's mother had to raise him mostly Eugene's mother had to raise him mostly Eugene's mother had to raise him mostly on her own. But you can piece together on her own. But you can piece together on her own. But you can piece together that mom wasn't much more of a stable that mom wasn't much more of a stable that mom wasn't much more of a stable presence than dad was because the presence than dad was because the presence than dad was because the Philadelphia Inquirer says that she died

Philadelphia Inquirer says that she died Philadelphia Inquirer says that she died of an overdose in 1989 with 7-year-old of an overdose in 1989 with 7-year-old of an overdose in 1989 with 7-year-old Eugene in [music] the room. After that, Eugene in [music] the room. After that, Eugene in [music] the room. After that, it was just Raymond raising Eugene alone it was just Raymond raising Eugene alone it was just Raymond raising Eugene alone in Bucks County in his childhood home in in Bucks County in his childhood home in in Bucks County in his childhood home in Shaon, the one I told you about. And you Shaon, the one I told you about. And you Shaon, the one I told you about. And you can like trace [music] this shifting in can like trace [music] this shifting in can like trace [music] this shifting in his path, like who he could have become his path, like who he could have become his path, like who he could have become to who he became. to who he became. to who he became. >> I mean, that was one of my biggest >> I mean, that was one of my biggest >> I mean, that was one of my biggest questions with this case, too. Like the questions with this case, too. Like the questions with this case, too. Like the the father's son thing, the father's son thing, the father's son thing, >> the nature versus nurture, right? >> the nature versus nurture, right? >> the nature versus nurture, right? >> Yeah. And like what was Eugene exposed >> Yeah. And like what was Eugene exposed >> Yeah. And like what was Eugene exposed to growing up that made him go from this to growing up that made him go from this to growing up that made him go from this like smart, pretty normal kid that like smart, pretty normal kid that like smart, pretty normal kid that Jeremy remembers to getting like so far Jeremy remembers to getting like so far Jeremy remembers to getting like so far off path? off path? off path? >> Well, speaking of Jeremy, this is >> Well, speaking of Jeremy, this is >> Well, speaking of Jeremy, this is actually where Eugene's former friend, actually where Eugene's former friend, actually where Eugene's former friend, his story comes back in. So, he his story comes back in. So, he his story comes back in. So, he [clears throat] told us about this time [clears throat] told us about this time [clears throat] told us about this time [music] [music] [music] when they were around junior highish age when they were around junior highish age when they were around junior highish age and they'd been playing video games on and they'd been playing video games on and they'd been playing video games on the computer [music] and Jeremy the computer [music] and Jeremy the computer [music] and Jeremy remembers something else like popping up remembers something else like popping up remembers something else like popping up on the screen. It was explicit content, on the screen. It was explicit content, on the screen. It was explicit content, but Jeremy described it as like way out but Jeremy described it as like way out but Jeremy described it as like way out of what he assumes most people would of what he assumes most people would of what he assumes most people would think of when they think of porn. It was think of when they think of porn. It was think of when they think of porn. It was actually gore and blood, like torture actually gore and blood, like torture actually gore and blood, like torture [music] [music] [music] situations.

situations. situations. >> And what does Eugene do during this? >> And what does Eugene do during this? >> And what does Eugene do during this? >> Nothing. That was the part that stuck >> Nothing. That was the part that stuck >> Nothing. That was the part that stuck with Jeremy all these years. He said with Jeremy all these years. He said with Jeremy all these years. He said that Eugene barely reacted. He just went that Eugene barely reacted. He just went that Eugene barely reacted. He just went like, "Oh yeah, that's just like my like, "Oh yeah, that's just like my like, "Oh yeah, that's just like my dad's stuff." And then they go right dad's stuff." And then they go right dad's stuff." And then they go right back [music] to gaming. So that is the back [music] to gaming. So that is the back [music] to gaming. So that is the environment that Eugene is actually environment that Eugene is actually environment that Eugene is actually growing up in. Because at the same time growing up in. Because at the same time growing up in. Because at the same time that Raymond is raising a kid, [music] that Raymond is raising a kid, [music] that Raymond is raising a kid, [music] he was building an entire career as a he was building an entire career as a he was building an entire career as a quote unquote filmmaker and quote unquote filmmaker and quote unquote filmmaker and photographer. And for decades, his whole photographer. And for decades, his whole photographer. And for decades, his whole body of work centered on [music] women, body of work centered on [music] women, body of work centered on [music] women, addiction, and violence. According to addiction, and violence. According to addiction, and violence. According to what we learned from the Philadelphia what we learned from the Philadelphia what we learned from the Philadelphia Inquirer, his whole MMO was built around Inquirer, his whole MMO was built around Inquirer, his whole MMO was built around one neighborhood in Philly, Kensington, one neighborhood in Philly, Kensington, one neighborhood in Philly, Kensington, which is one of the biggest open air which is one of the biggest open air which is one of the biggest open air drug markets in the country. Raymond's drug markets in the country. Raymond's drug markets in the country. Raymond's play was to approach women who were play was to approach women who were play was to approach women who were struggling, who were vulnerable, and he struggling, who were vulnerable, and he struggling, who were vulnerable, and he would offer them somewhere to stay, would offer them somewhere to stay, would offer them somewhere to stay, something to numb the pain. And in something to numb the pain. And in something to numb the pain. And in exchange, he wanted them to get in front exchange, he wanted them to get in front exchange, he wanted them to get in front of his camera to act out basically like of his camera to act out basically like of his camera to act out basically like staged [music] death scenes, hangings, staged [music] death scenes, hangings, staged [music] death scenes, hangings, strangulations, drownings. Now, we spoke strangulations, drownings. Now, we spoke strangulations, drownings. Now, we spoke with several longtime neighbors from his with several longtime neighbors from his with several longtime neighbors from his [music] house back in Shaont, and they [music] house back in Shaont, and they [music] house back in Shaont, and they all described the same pattern where all described the same pattern where all described the same pattern where like women would just be coming and like women would just be coming and like women would just be coming and going.

going. going. >> So, were these legit movies is like such >> So, were these legit movies is like such >> So, were these legit movies is like such a strong word. Were they like [music] a strong word. Were they like [music] a strong word. Were they like [music] being distributed or were they like just being distributed or were they like just being distributed or were they like just for him? for him? for him? >> It kind of seems like both. So way back >> It kind of seems like both. So way back >> It kind of seems like both. So way back in the 70s, he made at least one real in the 70s, he made at least one real in the 70s, he made at least one real movie that got a real release. They like movie that got a real release. They like movie that got a real release. They like ran ads for it in the paper. But over ran ads for it in the paper. But over ran ads for it in the paper. But over the years, most of his stuff was the years, most of his stuff was the years, most of his stuff was self-made and he had like photo books self-made and he had like photo books self-made and he had like photo books that he published himself, a that he published himself, a that he published himself, a documentary, stuff that he posted on his documentary, stuff that he posted on his documentary, stuff that he posted on his own website. And in 2014, he even got a own website. And in 2014, he even got a own website. And in 2014, he even got a gallery show in Kensington. But it all gallery show in Kensington. But it all gallery show in Kensington. But it all seemed like super low budget and it seemed like super low budget and it seemed like super low budget and it doesn't seem like it was making him much doesn't seem like it was making him much doesn't seem like it was making him much money. Neighbors told the Inquirer that money. Neighbors told the Inquirer that money. Neighbors told the Inquirer that his only income appeared [music] to be his only income appeared [music] to be his only income appeared [music] to be selling drugs. Now, in 2009, Raymond got selling drugs. Now, in 2009, Raymond got selling drugs. Now, in 2009, Raymond got in trouble with the law again for a grow in trouble with the law again for a grow in trouble with the law again for a grow operation in the Shaont house. So, he operation in the Shaont house. So, he operation in the Shaont house. So, he got a little over 50 months [music] that got a little over 50 months [music] that got a little over 50 months [music] that time when he was sentenced. He got out time when he was sentenced. He got out time when he was sentenced. He got out in 2013 and he had lost the Sha home. in 2013 and he had lost the Sha home. in 2013 and he had lost the Sha home. So, he went to go live with his son So, he went to go live with his son So, he went to go live with his son Eugene [music] at the house in Alni and Eugene [music] at the house in Alni and Eugene [music] at the house in Alni and he keeps making his stuff [music] there.

he keeps making his stuff [music] there. he keeps making his stuff [music] there. The Philadelphia Inquirer describes the The Philadelphia Inquirer describes the The Philadelphia Inquirer describes the house as basically becoming a porn house as basically becoming a porn house as basically becoming a porn [music] studio and years later he was [music] studio and years later he was [music] studio and years later he was still posting photos of women acting out still posting photos of women acting out still posting photos of women acting out their own deaths on his website. their own deaths on his website. their own deaths on his website. So to bring it back to Blair Tanzelli, So to bring it back to Blair Tanzelli, So to bring it back to Blair Tanzelli, there are a couple of things you need to there are a couple of things you need to there are a couple of things you need to know. We know that she spent years know. We know that she spent years know. We know that she spent years struggling with opioid addiction on the struggling with opioid addiction on the struggling with opioid addiction on the streets of Kensington streets of Kensington streets of Kensington >> where Raymond found women, >> where Raymond found women, >> where Raymond found women, >> right? And we know that she was last >> right? And we know that she was last >> right? And we know that she was last known to be at the horse house. And even known to be at the horse house. And even known to be at the horse house. And even though the friend who reported her though the friend who reported her though the friend who reported her missing didn't name the sketchy guy that missing didn't name the sketchy guy that missing didn't name the sketchy guy that Blair was scared of that lived there, Blair was scared of that lived there, Blair was scared of that lived there, according to reporting by the Inquirer, according to reporting by the Inquirer, according to reporting by the Inquirer, another friend did know the name of the another friend did know the name of the another friend did know the name of the man she was visiting. And it wasn't man she was visiting. And it wasn't man she was visiting. And it wasn't Eugene. He said [music] it was Raymond. Eugene. He said [music] it was Raymond. Eugene. He said [music] it was Raymond. And guess what? Blair wasn't the only And guess what? Blair wasn't the only And guess what? Blair wasn't the only missing woman whose last known location missing woman whose last known location missing woman whose last known location was at that house. Between working with our reporters, Between working with our reporters, post-production team, recording, and you post-production team, recording, and you post-production team, recording, and you know, running a company and being a wife know, running a company and being a wife know, running a company and being a wife and mother, I get approximately 30 and mother, I get approximately 30 and mother, I get approximately 30 minutes for me time every day. [music] minutes for me time every day. [music] minutes for me time every day. [music] Which means if I want to get a workout Which means if I want to get a workout Which means if I want to get a workout in, it needs to fit in whenever and in, it needs to fit in whenever and in, it needs to fit in whenever and wherever I find time. And sometimes, wherever I find time. And sometimes, wherever I find time. And sometimes, [music] honestly, that's right here in [music] honestly, that's right here in [music] honestly, that's right here in my office. I don't have a full gym or a my office. I don't have a full gym or a my office. I don't have a full gym or a team to help me stay in shape, but what team to help me stay in shape, but what team to help me stay in shape, but what I do have is a little bit of space to I do have is a little bit of space to I do have is a little bit of space to move, a couple of weights, and the move, a couple of weights, and the move, a couple of weights, and the ladder app. With the ladder app, it's ladder app. With the ladder app, it's ladder app. With the ladder app, it's like having a personal trainer right in like having a personal trainer right in like having a personal trainer right in my headphones pushing me not just

my headphones pushing me not just my headphones pushing me not just through every set, but week after week through every set, but week after week through every set, but week after week as my training plan builds off the work as my training plan builds off the work as my training plan builds off the work I've done through structured training I've done through structured training I've done through structured training blocks. And it's not just the elite blocks. And it's not just the elite blocks. And it's not just the elite level coaching that you get. The Ladder level coaching that you get. The Ladder level coaching that you get. The Ladder app offers community and built-in app offers community and built-in app offers community and built-in [music] nutrition tracking, and you get [music] nutrition tracking, and you get [music] nutrition tracking, and you get all of that for less than $1 per day. all of that for less than $1 per day. all of that for less than $1 per day. [music] Remove the guesswork with Ladder [music] Remove the guesswork with Ladder [music] Remove the guesswork with Ladder and get a real coach in your ear telling and get a real coach in your ear telling and get a real coach in your ear telling you exactly what to do for every you exactly what to do for every you exactly what to do for every workout. No thinking, [music] workout. No thinking, [music] workout. No thinking, [music] everything planned for you. If you have everything planned for you. If you have everything planned for you. If you have an iPhone, head to an iPhone, head to an iPhone, head to ladder.fit/crimejunkie ladder.fit/crimejunkie ladder.fit/crimejunkie and take a quiz to find your perfect and take a quiz to find your perfect and take a quiz to find your perfect ladder plan. Use my link and [music] get ladder plan. Use my link and [music] get ladder plan. Use my link and [music] get a free 7-day trial with no credit card a free 7-day trial with no credit card a free 7-day trial with no credit card and $10 off your first month if you and $10 off your first month if you and $10 off your first month if you join. About as quickly as reporters and the About as quickly as reporters and the public were learning about Blair public were learning about Blair public were learning about Blair Tonselli, [music] they were piecing Tonselli, [music] they were piecing Tonselli, [music] they were piecing together that another woman connected to together that another woman connected to together that another woman connected to Raymond Horsch had gone missing with her Raymond Horsch had gone missing with her Raymond Horsch had gone missing with her last known location [music] last known location [music] last known location [music] being the only house. Her name's Amy being the only house. Her name's Amy being the only house. Her name's Amy McCale. And according to what we learn McCale. And according to what we learn McCale. And according to what we learn about her from the Philadelphia about her from the Philadelphia about her from the Philadelphia Inquirer, she and Raymond met while she Inquirer, she and Raymond met while she Inquirer, she and Raymond met while she had been struggling with substance had been struggling with substance had been struggling with substance [music] use. Now, he's about 30 years [music] use. Now, he's about 30 years [music] use. Now, he's about 30 years older than her and basically gets her older than her and basically gets her older than her and basically gets her off the streets. Her mother later said off the streets. Her mother later said off the streets. Her mother later said that Amy saw him as her [music] savior.

that Amy saw him as her [music] savior. that Amy saw him as her [music] savior. So, they get married in 2004 right in So, they get married in 2004 right in So, they get married in 2004 right in the backyard of Raymond's Shaunt House. the backyard of Raymond's Shaunt House. the backyard of Raymond's Shaunt House. But Raymond is no one's savior. The But Raymond is no one's savior. The But Raymond is no one's savior. The marriage didn't last. [music] They marriage didn't last. [music] They marriage didn't last. [music] They divorced a few years after that, but divorced a few years after that, but divorced a few years after that, but apparently she still hung around even apparently she still hung around even apparently she still hung around even after Raymond got out of prison and after Raymond got out of prison and after Raymond got out of prison and moved to the new house in only which moved to the new house in only which moved to the new house in only which brings [music] us to June 13th, 2016. brings [music] us to June 13th, 2016. brings [music] us to June 13th, 2016. Amy went to the horse house that day. Amy went to the horse house that day. Amy went to the horse house that day. She called her mom from there that night She called her mom from there that night She called her mom from there that night sounding really drunk. So her mom told sounding really drunk. So her mom told sounding really drunk. So her mom told her to just stay put instead of taking her to just stay put instead of taking her to just stay put instead of taking the subway home. Then the next day, June the subway home. Then the next day, June the subway home. Then the next day, June 14th, Amy left a voicemail for her 14th, Amy left a voicemail for her 14th, Amy left a voicemail for her daughter. According to reporting by the daughter. According to reporting by the daughter. According to reporting by the Inquirer, she said that she was at Inquirer, she said that she was at Inquirer, she said that she was at [music] Ray's and that she was okay and [music] Ray's and that she was okay and [music] Ray's and that she was okay and then that's it. She is never heard from then that's it. She is never heard from then that's it. She is never heard from [music] [music] [music] again. Like what I don't understand again. Like what I don't understand again. Like what I don't understand about any of this is how police weren't about any of this is how police weren't about any of this is how police weren't picking up on this pattern [music] picking up on this pattern [music] picking up on this pattern [music] like years ago. like years ago. like years ago. >> Well, I think they were at least >> Well, I think they were at least >> Well, I think they were at least suspicious, but Raymond [music] suspicious, but Raymond [music] suspicious, but Raymond [music] never pretended that he didn't know never pretended that he didn't know never pretended that he didn't know these women. He always had some kind of these women. He always had some kind of these women. He always had some kind of like harmless sounding like explanation.

like harmless sounding like explanation. like harmless sounding like explanation. And so like with Blair, he claimed that And so like with Blair, he claimed that And so like with Blair, he claimed that she worked as his home health aid. she worked as his home health aid. she worked as his home health aid. [music] And then with Amy, he just tells [music] And then with Amy, he just tells [music] And then with Amy, he just tells everyone, police, Amy's family, the same everyone, police, Amy's family, the same everyone, police, Amy's family, the same story that she was drinking vodka, he story that she was drinking vodka, he story that she was drinking vodka, he went to bed, and then when he woke up in went to bed, and then when he woke up in went to bed, and then when he woke up in the morning, she [music] was just gone. the morning, she [music] was just gone. the morning, she [music] was just gone. And apparently they like didn't have And apparently they like didn't have And apparently they like didn't have enough for a warrant though. Like I enough for a warrant though. Like I enough for a warrant though. Like I would love to understand the nuts and would love to understand the nuts and would love to understand the nuts and bolts of that. Like someone goes bolts of that. Like someone goes bolts of that. Like someone goes missing. She literally leaves a recorded missing. She literally leaves a recorded missing. She literally leaves a recorded message saying, "I am here. This is message saying, "I am here. This is message saying, "I am here. This is where I am." where I am." where I am." >> And like the person confirms that she >> And like the person confirms that she >> And like the person confirms that she had been there and then can't get a had been there and then can't get a had been there and then can't get a warrant for here. Like that's wild to warrant for here. Like that's wild to warrant for here. Like that's wild to me. me. me. >> I mean, was her family convinced that he >> I mean, was her family convinced that he >> I mean, was her family convinced that he did something to her like back then or did something to her like back then or did something to her like back then or >> they never came out and publicly accused >> they never came out and publicly accused >> they never came out and publicly accused him as far as I can tell, but they knew him as far as I can tell, but they knew him as far as I can tell, but they knew that she wouldn't just leave. Like her that she wouldn't just leave. Like her that she wouldn't just leave. Like her daughter told the Inquirer that her mom daughter told the Inquirer that her mom daughter told the Inquirer that her mom was, you know, she would sometimes be was, you know, she would sometimes be was, you know, she would sometimes be gone for a couple of days, but never gone for a couple of days, but never gone for a couple of days, but never longer. She never missed big things like longer. She never missed big things like longer. She never missed big things like her grandkids milestones, for example. her grandkids milestones, for example. her grandkids milestones, for example. And Amy's mom put up signs all over And Amy's mom put up signs all over And Amy's mom put up signs all over Kensington looking for her. And there's Kensington looking for her. And there's Kensington looking for her. And there's actually this one detail that stuck with actually this one detail that stuck with actually this one detail that stuck with Amy's mom for years. So I guess normally Amy's mom for years. So I guess normally Amy's mom for years. So I guess normally whenever Amy would disappear for a whenever Amy would disappear for a whenever Amy would disappear for a little stretch or whatever, Raymond little stretch or whatever, Raymond little stretch or whatever, Raymond would call her like checking in. [music] would call her like checking in. [music] would call her like checking in. [music] But after this time, there was nothing.

But after this time, there was nothing. But after this time, there was nothing. He just stopped reaching out completely. He just stopped reaching out completely. He just stopped reaching out completely. >> So Amy's case sits like that for a >> So Amy's case sits like that for a >> So Amy's case sits like that for a [music] decade, unsolved, no real leads. [music] decade, unsolved, no real leads. [music] decade, unsolved, no real leads. But there's this woman we connected with But there's this woman we connected with But there's this woman we connected with named Barbara Rotella. She is or has named Barbara Rotella. She is or has named Barbara Rotella. She is or has dedicated a huge amount of time to dedicated a huge amount of time to dedicated a huge amount of time to creating this entire database of creating this entire database of creating this entire database of underreported and under reppresented underreported and under reppresented underreported and under reppresented [music] missing people [music] missing people [music] missing people >> like in Philly. >> like in Philly. >> like in Philly. >> No, girl. Like much bigger. But she does >> No, girl. Like much bigger. But she does >> No, girl. Like much bigger. But she does seem to focus on like the MidAtlantic seem to focus on like the MidAtlantic seem to focus on like the MidAtlantic with some cases even further out though. with some cases even further out though. with some cases even further out though. I mean, Barbara literally decided that I mean, Barbara literally decided that I mean, Barbara literally decided that what's already out there wasn't good what's already out there wasn't good what's already out there wasn't good enough. So, she's like like, "Okay, I'm enough. So, she's like like, "Okay, I'm enough. So, she's like like, "Okay, I'm just going to make my own thing." just going to make my own thing." just going to make my own thing." >> So, we love her. >> So, we love her. >> So, we love her. >> We do. We absolutely love her. She is >> We do. We absolutely love her. She is >> We do. We absolutely love her. She is one of us. All of our crime junkies one of us. All of our crime junkies one of us. All of our crime junkies should check out her work. Her website's should check out her work. Her website's should check out her work. Her website's super easy to remember. It is super easy to remember. It is super easy to remember. It is undergroundmmysteries.com. undergroundmmysteries.com. undergroundmmysteries.com. So, obviously, she had been looking into So, obviously, she had been looking into So, obviously, she had been looking into all of [music] this and she told one of all of [music] this and she told one of all of [music] this and she told one of our reporters about how she found a our reporters about how she found a our reporters about how she found a photo of Amy on Raymond's website back photo of Amy on Raymond's website back photo of Amy on Raymond's website back in 2024. Now, the site has since been in 2024. Now, the site has since been in 2024. Now, the site has since been taken down, so this was like 2 years taken down, so this was like 2 years taken down, so this was like 2 years before any of this broke publicly.

before any of this broke publicly. before any of this broke publicly. [music] [music] [music] She told us that the date in the photo She told us that the date in the photo She told us that the date in the photo file put it right around the time that file put it right around the time that file put it right around the time that Amy disappeared. [music] And the detail Amy disappeared. [music] And the detail Amy disappeared. [music] And the detail that stuck with her is like Amy is that stuck with her is like Amy is that stuck with her is like Amy is sitting in a car and it looks like she sitting in a car and it looks like she sitting in a car and it looks like she had been [music] crying. And Barbara had had been [music] crying. And Barbara had had been [music] crying. And Barbara had sent that photo directly to Amy's sent that photo directly to Amy's sent that photo directly to Amy's daughter who confirmed that she had daughter who confirmed that she had daughter who confirmed that she had never seen that picture before in her never seen that picture before in her never seen that picture before in her life. life. life. >> So Barbara told our reporter that she >> So Barbara told our reporter that she >> So Barbara told our reporter that she shared what she had with police [music] shared what she had with police [music] shared what she had with police [music] back in 2024. A detective did follow up. back in 2024. A detective did follow up. back in 2024. A detective did follow up. They interviewed Raymond and he just They interviewed Raymond and he just They interviewed Raymond and he just told detectives, you know, the same told detectives, you know, the same told detectives, you know, the same story and he said that all of his works story and he said that all of his works story and he said that all of his works were works of fiction. [music] That was were works of fiction. [music] That was were works of fiction. [music] That was his excuse and Raymond denied any his excuse and Raymond denied any his excuse and Raymond denied any involvement in her disappearance. So all involvement in her disappearance. So all involvement in her disappearance. So all of the story involves Raymond, but like of the story involves Raymond, but like of the story involves Raymond, but like Eugene is in this house too, right? Like Eugene is in this house too, right? Like Eugene is in this house too, right? Like did they question Eugene about any of did they question Eugene about any of did they question Eugene about any of this? this? this? >> I don't know for sure. I haven't seen >> I don't know for sure. I haven't seen >> I don't know for sure. I haven't seen the files, but I don't I don't think so the files, but I don't I don't think so the files, but I don't I don't think so about Amy because what I can tell you about Amy because what I can tell you about Amy because what I can tell you with near certainty is that Eugene was with near certainty is that Eugene was with near certainty is that Eugene was incarcerated at the time that Amy incarcerated at the time that Amy incarcerated at the time that Amy disappeared. So, I don't know that he disappeared. So, I don't know that he disappeared. So, I don't know that he would have any relevant information.

would have any relevant information. would have any relevant information. [music] [music] [music] >> Now, as far as we know, he wasn't in >> Now, as far as we know, he wasn't in >> Now, as far as we know, he wasn't in custody when Blair disappeared. And to custody when Blair disappeared. And to custody when Blair disappeared. And to be clear, Eugene has not been charged in be clear, Eugene has not been charged in be clear, Eugene has not been charged in connection with any crimes related to connection with any crimes related to connection with any crimes related to the missing women. And a lot of what we the missing women. And a lot of what we the missing women. And a lot of what we know about Blair points back to Raymond. know about Blair points back to Raymond. know about Blair points back to Raymond. though remember it was Eugene who though remember it was Eugene who though remember it was Eugene who allegedly made that fake ID using her allegedly made that fake ID using her allegedly made that fake ID using her name. And the Philadelphia Inquirer even name. And the Philadelphia Inquirer even name. And the Philadelphia Inquirer even ends up reporting that there was at ends up reporting that there was at ends up reporting that there was at least one photo of Blair reportedly up least one photo of Blair reportedly up least one photo of Blair reportedly up on Raymond's site, too. In it, they say on Raymond's site, too. In it, they say on Raymond's site, too. In it, they say she was nude with a black eye and a she was nude with a black eye and a she was nude with a black eye and a bloody lip. I mean, you have to assume bloody lip. I mean, you have to assume bloody lip. I mean, you have to assume that both women at least maybe [music] that both women at least maybe [music] that both women at least maybe [music] crossed paths with Eugene, though, like crossed paths with Eugene, though, like crossed paths with Eugene, though, like if they were in the house. if they were in the house. if they were in the house. >> This is the problem. I don't think >> This is the problem. I don't think >> This is the problem. I don't think anything like can be fully answered yet anything like can be fully answered yet anything like can be fully answered yet because things get even more complicated because things get even more complicated because things get even more complicated the more investigators continue to the more investigators continue to the more investigators continue to uncover things from the house in only uncover things from the house in only uncover things from the house in only because to come back to the early days because to come back to the early days because to come back to the early days of this investigation in 2026. What of this investigation in 2026. What of this investigation in 2026. What police hadn't even revealed publicly police hadn't even revealed publicly police hadn't even revealed publicly right away [music] was that part of what right away [music] was that part of what right away [music] was that part of what they had seized from the horse house in they had seized from the horse house in they had seized from the horse house in Alni [music] Alni [music] Alni [music] included digital evidence. And we're not included digital evidence. And we're not included digital evidence. And we're not talking just like a couple of pictures, talking just like a couple of pictures, talking just like a couple of pictures, [music] [music] [music] >> right? We are talking around 50 hard >> right? We are talking around 50 hard >> right? We are talking around 50 hard drives with over 600,000 images, [music] drives with over 600,000 images, [music] drives with over 600,000 images, [music] more than 70,000 videos, and over 10,000 more than 70,000 videos, and over 10,000 more than 70,000 videos, and over 10,000 [music] pages of writing, [music] pages of writing, [music] pages of writing, >> right? Like not just a computer. This is >> right? Like not just a computer. This is >> right? Like not just a computer. This is like a database, a person's entire life.

like a database, a person's entire life. like a database, a person's entire life. >> Now, look, by this point, investigators >> Now, look, by this point, investigators >> Now, look, by this point, investigators already know that this case [music] is already know that this case [music] is already know that this case [music] is dark. They've read the letter. They know dark. They've read the letter. They know dark. They've read the letter. They know about Raymond's whole career staging about Raymond's whole career staging about Raymond's whole career staging violence for the camera. They have heard violence for the camera. They have heard violence for the camera. They have heard from witnesses. So, you would think that from witnesses. So, you would think that from witnesses. So, you would think that they would walk into this digital they would walk into this digital they would walk into this digital evidence somewhat prepared for what's evidence somewhat prepared for what's evidence somewhat prepared for what's coming. But actually sitting down and coming. But actually sitting down and coming. But actually sitting down and going through hundreds of thousands going through hundreds of thousands going through hundreds of thousands [music] of files trying to figure out [music] of files trying to figure out [music] of files trying to figure out which ones are staged and which ones which ones are staged and which ones which ones are staged and which ones might be legit [music] is something else might be legit [music] is something else might be legit [music] is something else entirely. entirely. entirely. >> I truly cannot imagine having that job. >> I truly cannot imagine having that job. >> I truly cannot imagine having that job. just like how much it would like mess just like how much it would like mess just like how much it would like mess with your hair, with your hair, with your hair, >> wear on you. Do you remember? We did an >> wear on you. Do you remember? We did an >> wear on you. Do you remember? We did an entire show on this actually like entire show on this actually like entire show on this actually like >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But someone has to go through this stuff >> But someone has to go through this stuff >> But someone has to go through this stuff because within these hard drives full of because within these hard drives full of because within these hard drives full of files that he called fiction files that he called fiction files that he called fiction >> are glimpses of the truth that tells us >> are glimpses of the truth that tells us >> are glimpses of the truth that tells us at least [music] at least [music] at least [music] some of this might be real. some of this might be real. some of this might be real. This realization does not reach the This realization does not reach the This realization does not reach the public until August 12th, 2026. That is public until August 12th, 2026. That is public until August 12th, 2026. That is when police call another press when police call another press when police call another press conference. [music] conference. [music] conference. [music] An inspector named Raymond Evers stands An inspector named Raymond Evers stands An inspector named Raymond Evers stands in front of the cameras and says in front of the cameras and says in front of the cameras and says something that nobody's heard yet in something that nobody's heard yet in something that nobody's heard yet in this investigation. [music] this investigation. [music] this investigation. [music] He says two women are now believed to He says two women are now believed to He says two women are now believed to have been killed inside that house.

have been killed inside that house. have been killed inside that house. [music] But it is not the two names that [music] But it is not the two names that [music] But it is not the two names that we already know, Blair and Amy. It is we already know, Blair and Amy. It is we already know, Blair and Amy. It is Marbel Fres reported missing in [music] Marbel Fres reported missing in [music] Marbel Fres reported missing in [music] 2018 and Gabrielle Amirando missing 2018 and Gabrielle Amirando missing 2018 and Gabrielle Amirando missing since 2012. since 2012. since 2012. The reason they were announcing this now The reason they were announcing this now The reason they were announcing this now is because as investigators were combing is because as investigators were combing is because as investigators were combing through a mountain of files. [music] through a mountain of files. [music] through a mountain of files. [music] They found images of these two young They found images of these two young They found images of these two young women and at one point both women appear women and at one point both women appear women and at one point both women appear alive and then in other images contained alive and then in other images contained alive and then in other images contained [music] within those same files they [music] within those same files they [music] within those same files they both look dead. both look dead. both look dead. >> And has it ever come out how they were >> And has it ever come out how they were >> And has it ever come out how they were able to ID them? able to ID them? able to ID them? >> So police never said but this was >> So police never said but this was >> So police never said but this was actually a question that we had while we actually a question that we had while we actually a question that we had while we were reporting on this case. So we were reporting on this case. So we were reporting on this case. So we reached out to a guy named Adam [music] reached out to a guy named Adam [music] reached out to a guy named Adam [music] Scott Want. He is an associate professor Scott Want. He is an associate professor Scott Want. He is an associate professor of public policy who specializes [music] of public policy who specializes [music] of public policy who specializes [music] in digital forensics and he didn't work in digital forensics and he didn't work in digital forensics and he didn't work on this case. We just wanted to like on this case. We just wanted to like on this case. We just wanted to like understand in general how something like understand in general how something like understand in general how something like this typically works. this typically works. this typically works. >> And he said that the likely tool that >> And he said that the likely tool that >> And he said that the likely tool that was used was some kind of facial was used was some kind of facial was used was some kind of facial recognition software [music] which pulls recognition software [music] which pulls recognition software [music] which pulls from everywhere. Driver's license from everywhere. Driver's license from everywhere. Driver's license photos, social media, all of it. And he photos, social media, all of it. And he photos, social media, all of it. And he said that matching somebody in that way said that matching somebody in that way said that matching somebody in that way isn't difficult at all these days. So isn't difficult at all these days. So isn't difficult at all these days. So that is his best [music] educated guess.

that is his best [music] educated guess. that is his best [music] educated guess. But back to the press conference. So, But back to the press conference. So, But back to the press conference. So, along with naming these women, who by along with naming these women, who by along with naming these women, who by the way, police are clear they do not the way, police are clear they do not the way, police are clear they do not have bodies for, they say that the have bodies for, they say that the have bodies for, they say that the material that they're having to review material that they're having to review material that they're having to review is quote graphic and [music] dark, is quote graphic and [music] dark, is quote graphic and [music] dark, though they won't say what it shows or though they won't say what it shows or though they won't say what it shows or how the women may have died. But even how the women may have died. But even how the women may have died. But even the medical examiner's office has the medical examiner's office has the medical examiner's office has weighed in and they say that the women weighed in and they say that the women weighed in and they say that the women are dead if the [music] images and the are dead if the [music] images and the are dead if the [music] images and the videos are real and not altered in any videos are real and not altered in any videos are real and not altered in any way. And in this AI age, that's like a way. And in this AI age, that's like a way. And in this AI age, that's like a big if. I mean, even in like 2012, 2014, big if. I mean, even in like 2012, 2014, big if. I mean, even in like 2012, 2014, 2016, like 10, 15 years ago, we had 2016, like 10, 15 years ago, we had 2016, like 10, 15 years ago, we had incredible Photoshop tools. incredible Photoshop tools. incredible Photoshop tools. >> And you know, and and you know, uh >> And you know, and and you know, uh >> And you know, and and you know, uh Raymond considered himself an artist, so Raymond considered himself an artist, so Raymond considered himself an artist, so it's totally possible, it's totally possible, it's totally possible, >> right? [music] Outside of the pictures, >> right? [music] Outside of the pictures, >> right? [music] Outside of the pictures, are there other ties to like either of are there other ties to like either of are there other ties to like either of the guys, either horse, like the guys, either horse, like the guys, either horse, like >> not like Amy and Blair? No. So, they >> not like Amy and Blair? No. So, they >> not like Amy and Blair? No. So, they just have the images which police just have the images which police just have the images which police believe were taken inside that house. believe were taken inside that house. believe were taken inside that house. Like that is what ties the connection. Like that is what ties the connection. Like that is what ties the connection. >> Yeah. Now, even though the pictures came >> Yeah. Now, even though the pictures came >> Yeah. Now, even though the pictures came from the search of the house in Alni, from the search of the house in Alni, from the search of the house in Alni, and we know Eugene and Raymond lived and we know Eugene and Raymond lived and we know Eugene and Raymond lived there, and we know that Raymond was there, and we know that Raymond was there, and we know that Raymond was known to be the one who captured the known to be the one who captured the known to be the one who captured the stuff like this, police have stopped stuff like this, police have stopped stuff like this, police have stopped short of blaming either of the horses.

short of blaming either of the horses. short of blaming either of the horses. Inspector Evers actually gets asked this Inspector Evers actually gets asked this Inspector Evers actually gets asked this question pretty directly, [music] question pretty directly, [music] question pretty directly, [music] like, were they involved in these like, were they involved in these like, were they involved in these women's deaths? And here's exactly how women's deaths? And here's exactly how women's deaths? And here's exactly how he answered it. Quote, Eugene lived he answered it. Quote, Eugene lived he answered it. Quote, Eugene lived there. He lived there for a long time. there. He lived there for a long time. there. He lived there for a long time. [music] His dad lived there for a long [music] His dad lived there for a long [music] His dad lived there for a long time. End quote. time. End quote. time. End quote. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Exactly what I told you. >> Exactly what I told you. >> Exactly what I told you. >> Did the pictures have dates on them or >> Did the pictures have dates on them or >> Did the pictures have dates on them or like any of the metadata that could help like any of the metadata that could help like any of the metadata that could help them find the bodies? them find the bodies? them find the bodies? >> So, here is where things get real >> So, here is where things get real >> So, here is where things get real interesting. Yes. [music] Investigators interesting. Yes. [music] Investigators interesting. Yes. [music] Investigators would later go on to say that they would later go on to say that they would later go on to say that they pulled the metadata and that shows that pulled the metadata and that shows that pulled the metadata and that shows that both images were taken in [music] 2017. both images were taken in [music] 2017. both images were taken in [music] 2017. But we But we But we >> I know. So Gabrielle went missing in >> I know. So Gabrielle went missing in >> I know. So Gabrielle went missing in 2012. 2012. 2012. >> I mean, more [music] concerning, I >> I mean, more [music] concerning, I >> I mean, more [music] concerning, I think, is that Marbel went missing after think, is that Marbel went missing after think, is that Marbel went missing after 2017, like in 2018. Is [music] is the 2017, like in 2018. Is [music] is the 2017, like in 2018. Is [music] is the date fake? date fake? date fake? >> Marbel was reported missing February >> Marbel was reported missing February >> Marbel was reported missing February 2018. So I wonder if maybe it's possible 2018. So I wonder if maybe it's possible 2018. So I wonder if maybe it's possible that she had been MIA for longer. that she had been MIA for longer. that she had been MIA for longer. Remember how kind of like Blair was? Or Remember how kind of like Blair was? Or Remember how kind of like Blair was? Or maybe somehow that 2017 date is just maybe somehow that 2017 date is just maybe somehow that 2017 date is just off. Because you're right, there is a off. Because you're right, there is a off. Because you're right, there is a huge gap between 2012 and 2017 for huge gap between 2012 and 2017 for huge gap between 2012 and 2017 for Gabrielle.

Gabrielle. Gabrielle. Now, Marbel and Gabrielle were the first Now, Marbel and Gabrielle were the first Now, Marbel and Gabrielle were the first two [music] women that police openly two [music] women that police openly two [music] women that police openly said like they believed were dead. But said like they believed were dead. But said like they believed were dead. But there was also a caveat that left all of there was also a caveat that left all of there was also a caveat that left all of us feeling like there was going to be us feeling like there was going to be us feeling like there was going to be more press conferences to come. Because more press conferences to come. Because more press conferences to come. Because at that point, what they said is they at that point, what they said is they at that point, what they said is they had only gone through about 5% of what had only gone through about 5% of what had only gone through about 5% of what is [music] actually on those hard is [music] actually on those hard is [music] actually on those hard drives. And as expected, the more they drives. And as expected, the more they drives. And as expected, the more they viewed, the more potential victims viewed, the more potential victims viewed, the more potential victims [music] they've identified. Hi, crime junkies. Brit here. I know to Hi, crime junkies. Brit here. I know to many of you guys I might just be a voice many of you guys I might just be a voice many of you guys I might just be a voice in your headphones or a face that lives in your headphones or a face that lives in your headphones or a face that lives inside your screens, but believe it or inside your screens, but believe it or inside your screens, but believe it or not, when this episode ends, I continue not, when this episode ends, I continue not, when this episode ends, I continue to exist. I know. Wait, what? And while to exist. I know. Wait, what? And while to exist. I know. Wait, what? And while I'm doing that whole existing thing, I I'm doing that whole existing thing, I I'm doing that whole existing thing, I am so much more than just your favorite am so much more than just your favorite am so much more than just your favorite podcasts co-host. I invest time in my podcasts co-host. I invest time in my podcasts co-host. I invest time in my family, friends, work, interests. I love family, friends, work, interests. I love family, friends, work, interests. I love to crochet and cook. I listen to music to crochet and cook. I listen to music to crochet and cook. I listen to music and podcasts. I like to travel. All and podcasts. I like to travel. All and podcasts. I like to travel. All things humans like to do. And YouTube things humans like to do. And YouTube things humans like to do. And YouTube has found its place in pretty much all has found its place in pretty much all has found its place in pretty much all of it. And that's why I'm so excited to of it. And that's why I'm so excited to of it. And that's why I'm so excited to share with you how YouTube Premium has share with you how YouTube Premium has share with you how YouTube Premium has taken my daily life and made it taken my daily life and made it taken my daily life and made it absolutely seamless. YouTube Premium's absolutely seamless. YouTube Premium's absolutely seamless. YouTube Premium's ad-ree experience means I don't have to ad-ree experience means I don't have to ad-ree experience means I don't have to pause my latest crochet project while I pause my latest crochet project while I pause my latest crochet project while I wait for ads to roll or scramble to wash wait for ads to roll or scramble to wash wait for ads to roll or scramble to wash the sticky mess off my hands mid the sticky mess off my hands mid the sticky mess off my hands mid sourdough loaf to hit skip. And I love

sourdough loaf to hit skip. And I love sourdough loaf to hit skip. And I love that I can indulge in all the niche that I can indulge in all the niche that I can indulge in all the niche interests living rentree in my head and interests living rentree in my head and interests living rentree in my head and dive down deep rabbit holes like dive down deep rabbit holes like dive down deep rabbit holes like Applejack's role in My Little Pony: Applejack's role in My Little Pony: Applejack's role in My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic or watch hours long Friendship is Magic or watch hours long Friendship is Magic or watch hours long video essays learning everything about video essays learning everything about video essays learning everything about anything completely uninterrupted. anything completely uninterrupted. anything completely uninterrupted. Anyone else? [music] Anyone else? [music] Anyone else? [music] Just me? Okay. And that convenience Just me? Okay. And that convenience Just me? Okay. And that convenience doesn't stop when I'm on the road. One doesn't stop when I'm on the road. One doesn't stop when I'm on the road. One of the most important steps on my travel of the most important steps on my travel of the most important steps on my travel prep checklist is downloading YouTube prep checklist is downloading YouTube prep checklist is downloading YouTube videos and shorts to keep my kids, my videos and shorts to keep my kids, my videos and shorts to keep my kids, my husband, and myself busy on long flights husband, and myself busy on long flights husband, and myself busy on long flights and road trips. And when I'm traveling and road trips. And when I'm traveling and road trips. And when I'm traveling alone, I can load my phone up with alone, I can load my phone up with alone, I can load my phone up with episodes from some of my favorite shows episodes from some of my favorite shows episodes from some of my favorite shows like Vibe Check and Good Hang with Amy like Vibe Check and Good Hang with Amy like Vibe Check and Good Hang with Amy Polar, so I don't have to worry about Polar, so I don't have to worry about Polar, so I don't have to worry about what I'm going to listen to while I'm what I'm going to listen to while I'm what I'm going to listen to while I'm running to catch my next flight. And as running to catch my next flight. And as running to catch my next flight. And as if the endless video content wasn't if the endless video content wasn't if the endless video content wasn't enough, with YouTube Premium, I can enough, with YouTube Premium, I can enough, with YouTube Premium, I can stream all the music I want on the stream all the music I want on the stream all the music I want on the YouTube Music app, adree. And with mixes YouTube Music app, adree. And with mixes YouTube Music app, adree. And with mixes and playlists tailored especially to my and playlists tailored especially to my and playlists tailored especially to my tastes, I never fall into a music rut. tastes, I never fall into a music rut. tastes, I never fall into a music rut. So yeah, turns out I have a whole life So yeah, turns out I have a whole life So yeah, turns out I have a whole life outside of Crime Junkie. Whatever I'm outside of Crime Junkie. Whatever I'm outside of Crime Junkie. Whatever I'm into and wherever I am, YouTube Premium into and wherever I am, YouTube Premium into and wherever I am, YouTube Premium is right there with me. Stream Crime is right there with me. Stream Crime is right there with me. Stream Crime Junkie and the rest of your favorite Junkie and the rest of your favorite Junkie and the rest of your favorite creators without limits on YouTube creators without limits on YouTube creators without limits on YouTube Premium. [music] September 16th, 2026, police hold September 16th, 2026, police hold another press conference. Deputy another press conference. Deputy another press conference. Deputy Commissioner Venor says that while going

Commissioner Venor says that while going Commissioner Venor says that while going through the digital evidence, through the digital evidence, through the digital evidence, investigators have identified three investigators have identified three investigators have identified three additional women who may have been additional women who may have been additional women who may have been harmed. Two are described the same way. harmed. Two are described the same way. harmed. Two are described the same way. They were found in recovered images They were found in recovered images They were found in recovered images unconscious [music] unconscious [music] unconscious [music] with visible injuries. Now, one of them, with visible injuries. Now, one of them, with visible injuries. Now, one of them, they say it was a woman around 25 years they say it was a woman around 25 years they say it was a woman around 25 years old, but they don't release her name out old, but they don't release her name out old, but they don't release her name out of respect for her family's wishes. of respect for her family's wishes. of respect for her family's wishes. [music] And the second woman was still [music] And the second woman was still [music] And the second woman was still unidentified is still unidentified as of unidentified is still unidentified as of unidentified is still unidentified as of this recording. But the third Venor goes this recording. But the third Venor goes this recording. But the third Venor goes further than anyone has so far when he further than anyone has so far when he further than anyone has so far when he describes what it was they found describes what it was they found describes what it was they found involving her. He said they came across involving her. He said they came across involving her. He said they came across a [music] video, not a photo, an actual a [music] video, not a photo, an actual a [music] video, not a photo, an actual video from not one but two cameras. One video from not one but two cameras. One video from not one but two cameras. One of the cameras, police say Raymon was of the cameras, police say Raymon was of the cameras, police say Raymon was controlling himself filming as a woman controlling himself filming as a woman controlling himself filming as a woman used drugs. Then he says Raymond Horsch used drugs. Then he says Raymond Horsch used drugs. Then he says Raymond Horsch hands her money, handcuffs her [music] hands her money, handcuffs her [music] hands her money, handcuffs her [music] to the bed, and then using a tool, to the bed, and then using a tool, to the bed, and then using a tool, basically like a pair of pliers, he puts basically like a pair of pliers, he puts basically like a pair of pliers, he puts a zip tie around her neck until she a zip tie around her neck until she a zip tie around her neck until she looks lifeless. [music] looks lifeless. [music] looks lifeless. [music] Now, police don't identify this woman in Now, police don't identify this woman in Now, police don't identify this woman in the video publicly, again, out of the video publicly, again, out of the video publicly, again, out of respect for her family, but there is a respect for her family, but there is a respect for her family, but there is a man [music] watching that press man [music] watching that press man [music] watching that press conference on a live stream who already conference on a live stream who already conference on a live stream who already knows who she is. [music] Because just a knows who she is. [music] Because just a knows who she is. [music] Because just a few hours earlier, detectives had been few hours earlier, detectives had been few hours earlier, detectives had been sitting in his mom's house making the sitting in his mom's house making the sitting in his mom's house making the death notification. You see, this man is death notification. You see, this man is death notification. You see, this man is Jonathan Howerin Corin, and for the past Jonathan Howerin Corin, and for the past Jonathan Howerin Corin, and for the past few years, he had been looking for his few years, he had been looking for his few years, he had been looking for his cousin Nicole [music]

cousin Nicole [music] cousin Nicole [music] Fousaro. They'd been close growing up. Fousaro. They'd been close growing up. Fousaro. They'd been close growing up. He described her as one of the sweetest He described her as one of the sweetest He described her as one of the sweetest girls you could imagine, but like both girls you could imagine, but like both girls you could imagine, but like both her parents, she struggled with her parents, she struggled with her parents, she struggled with addiction. [music] Now, the cousins lost addiction. [music] Now, the cousins lost addiction. [music] Now, the cousins lost touch around 2011 when Jonathan was touch around 2011 when Jonathan was touch around 2011 when Jonathan was living overseas for work. And he living overseas for work. And he living overseas for work. And he actually lost touch with a lot of actually lost touch with a lot of actually lost touch with a lot of family, which is why he didn't realize family, which is why he didn't realize family, which is why he didn't realize until 2020 that Nicole had gone missing. until 2020 that Nicole had gone missing. until 2020 that Nicole had gone missing. He was just searching her name on He was just searching her name on He was just searching her name on Facebook and found a group created to Facebook and found a group created to Facebook and found a group created to help find her. And in that same sitting, help find her. And in that same sitting, help find her. And in that same sitting, one of the first posts he reads tells one of the first posts he reads tells one of the first posts he reads tells him that Nicole's mom, Diane, who had him that Nicole's mom, Diane, who had him that Nicole's mom, Diane, who had been the one like spearheading the been the one like spearheading the been the one like spearheading the search for her daughter, Diane had search for her daughter, Diane had search for her daughter, Diane had already died 2 months earlier. So already died 2 months earlier. So already died 2 months earlier. So Jonathan decided to pick up where Diane Jonathan decided to pick up where Diane Jonathan decided to pick up where Diane left off. [music] He was back in the US left off. [music] He was back in the US left off. [music] He was back in the US pounding pavement in Kensington where he pounding pavement in Kensington where he pounding pavement in Kensington where he found out she was known to frequent. And found out she was known to frequent. And found out she was known to frequent. And the same name kept [music] popping up the same name kept [music] popping up the same name kept [music] popping up for him. Rey. this guy known as a for him. Rey. this guy known as a for him. Rey. this guy known as a pornographer and photographer who puts pornographer and photographer who puts pornographer and photographer who puts ads out on Craigslist looking for ads out on Craigslist looking for ads out on Craigslist looking for models. models. models. >> And this is years before any of this >> And this is years before any of this >> And this is years before any of this broke, broke, broke, >> years. So, his ears perked up right away >> years. So, his ears perked up right away >> years. So, his ears perked up right away when the first news articles were coming when the first news articles were coming when the first news articles were coming out mentioning Raymond Horsch. He out mentioning Raymond Horsch. He out mentioning Raymond Horsch. He started tracking the case closely.

started tracking the case closely. started tracking the case closely. [music] [music] [music] And then on September 10th, a family And then on September 10th, a family And then on September 10th, a family member called him. They had gotten a member called him. They had gotten a member called him. They had gotten a notification from Philadelphia police notification from Philadelphia police notification from Philadelphia police that Nicole [music] was dead. connected that Nicole [music] was dead. connected that Nicole [music] was dead. connected to what they called the quote Ray Horsch to what they called the quote Ray Horsch to what they called the quote Ray Horsch case. Now, this first notification was case. Now, this first notification was case. Now, this first notification was to Nicole's father's side of the family, to Nicole's father's side of the family, to Nicole's father's side of the family, and apparently they had requested that and apparently they had requested that and apparently they had requested that Nicole's name not be publicly disclosed, Nicole's name not be publicly disclosed, Nicole's name not be publicly disclosed, which is why police initially didn't which is why police initially didn't which is why police initially didn't [music] say it at the press conference. [music] say it at the press conference. [music] say it at the press conference. So, fast forward 6 days later, So, fast forward 6 days later, So, fast forward 6 days later, detectives showed up at Jonathan's mom's detectives showed up at Jonathan's mom's detectives showed up at Jonathan's mom's place to give her a notification, too. place to give her a notification, too. place to give her a notification, too. And Jonathan was there when they And Jonathan was there when they And Jonathan was there when they arrived. [music] So, they tell his mom arrived. [music] So, they tell his mom arrived. [music] So, they tell his mom that Nicole was killed, strangled, and that Nicole was killed, strangled, and that Nicole was killed, strangled, and they say there was a videotape. And they say there was a videotape. And they say there was a videotape. And [music] Jonathan tried to ask them more [music] Jonathan tried to ask them more [music] Jonathan tried to ask them more questions about what was on the tape, questions about what was on the tape, questions about what was on the tape, but he said that they got super short but he said that they got super short but he said that they got super short with him. They wouldn't tell him since with him. They wouldn't tell him since with him. They wouldn't tell him since he was not technically the next of he was not technically the next of he was not technically the next of [music] kin. And they apparently said [music] kin. And they apparently said [music] kin. And they apparently said something like, you know, we know all something like, you know, we know all something like, you know, we know all about your advocacy for the other about your advocacy for the other about your advocacy for the other victims. Because by this point, like as victims. Because by this point, like as victims. Because by this point, like as he had learned about this investigation, he had learned about this investigation, he had learned about this investigation, he had been like petitioning for he had been like petitioning for he had been like petitioning for additional FBI involvement in the case.

additional FBI involvement in the case. additional FBI involvement in the case. >> Okay. so sorry for caring. >> Okay. so sorry for caring. >> Okay. so sorry for caring. >> Yeah. And and listen, he told them he's >> Yeah. And and listen, he told them he's >> Yeah. And and listen, he told them he's like, "I've got other leads that I want like, "I've got other leads that I want like, "I've got other leads that I want to hand over, but at least to him, he to hand over, but at least to him, he to hand over, but at least to him, he said they didn't seem [music] to like said they didn't seem [music] to like said they didn't seem [music] to like want to hear any of it. They they didn't want to hear any of it. They they didn't want to hear any of it. They they didn't even give him like an email or a name to even give him like an email or a name to even give him like an email or a name to send his [music] tips to." And so then send his [music] tips to." And so then send his [music] tips to." And so then fast forward just a few hours later, fast forward just a few hours later, fast forward just a few hours later, there they are telling the whole country there they are telling the whole country there they are telling the whole country what's in the video, which is like what what's in the video, which is like what what's in the video, which is like what he was asking. They said they wouldn't he was asking. They said they wouldn't he was asking. They said they wouldn't say, "But you'll tell the entire say, "But you'll tell the entire say, "But you'll tell the entire public." Like that really rubbed him the public." Like that really rubbed him the public." Like that really rubbed him the wrong way. And he said watching that wrong way. And he said watching that wrong way. And he said watching that presser on the live stream, he told us presser on the live stream, he told us presser on the live stream, he told us he just felt anger [music] and sadness, he just felt anger [music] and sadness, he just felt anger [music] and sadness, but Nicole's name, even though they're but Nicole's name, even though they're but Nicole's name, even though they're not saying it, it doesn't stay secret not saying it, it doesn't stay secret not saying it, it doesn't stay secret for long. So that soon gets [music] for long. So that soon gets [music] for long. So that soon gets [music] leaked to the media. Nicole Fusaro, leaked to the media. Nicole Fusaro, leaked to the media. Nicole Fusaro, missing since July 2018, 27 years old. missing since July 2018, 27 years old. missing since July 2018, 27 years old. >> And did police say when she was killed >> And did police say when she was killed >> And did police say when she was killed or when they believe she was killed? or when they believe she was killed? or when they believe she was killed? Well, they say that like Marbel and Well, they say that like Marbel and Well, they say that like Marbel and Gabrielle, the metadata [music] says Gabrielle, the metadata [music] says Gabrielle, the metadata [music] says 2017, 2017, 2017, but just like in those cases, that's but just like in those cases, that's but just like in those cases, that's weird with what we know, right? Like for weird with what we know, right? Like for weird with what we know, right? Like for Nicole, in her case, we actually know Nicole, in her case, we actually know Nicole, in her case, we actually know that she was alive and like spoke to her that she was alive and like spoke to her that she was alive and like spoke to her mom in 2018.

mom in 2018. mom in 2018. >> So, [music] the date has to be wrong, >> So, [music] the date has to be wrong, >> So, [music] the date has to be wrong, >> I think. So, and Jonathan said that they >> I think. So, and Jonathan said that they >> I think. So, and Jonathan said that they did say something interesting to his did say something interesting to his did say something interesting to his [music] mom. So when she asked like when [music] mom. So when she asked like when [music] mom. So when she asked like when this happened, they allegedly told her this happened, they allegedly told her this happened, they allegedly told her that the camera's date and time had to that the camera's date and time had to that the camera's date and time had to be set manually by [music] hand. So they be set manually by [music] hand. So they be set manually by [music] hand. So they don't even know if the date on the video don't even know if the date on the video don't even know if the date on the video was accurate. was accurate. was accurate. >> So going back to like the question we >> So going back to like the question we >> So going back to like the question we have about all of them, honestly, we have about all of them, honestly, we have about all of them, honestly, we might as well just like completely might as well just like completely might as well just like completely scratch that date until we know more. scratch that date until we know more. scratch that date until we know more. Though Jonathan did tell us that Though Jonathan did tell us that Though Jonathan did tell us that investigators have since told him that investigators have since told him that investigators have since told him that his cousin's digital evidence was sent his cousin's digital evidence was sent his cousin's digital evidence was sent to a specialized FBI lab and that the to a specialized FBI lab and that the to a specialized FBI lab and that the videos confirmed to be real and not videos confirmed to be real and not videos confirmed to be real and not [music] anything like a deep fake. So, I [music] anything like a deep fake. So, I [music] anything like a deep fake. So, I don't know if they're going to be able don't know if they're going to be able don't know if they're going to be able to like pull more data or or what. to like pull more data or or what. to like pull more data or or what. >> Yeah. And do we know if any of the >> Yeah. And do we know if any of the >> Yeah. And do we know if any of the digital evidence so far has connected to digital evidence so far has connected to digital evidence so far has connected to like Amy or Blair? like Amy or Blair? like Amy or Blair? >> No, not as far as we know. They have not >> No, not as far as we know. They have not >> No, not as far as we know. They have not come up. [music] What about all the come up. [music] What about all the come up. [music] What about all the physical evidence from the search of the physical evidence from the search of the physical evidence from the search of the only house like that we talked about only house like that we talked about only house like that we talked about from the beginning like blood the drum from the beginning like blood the drum from the beginning like blood the drum like does anything connect to any of like does anything connect to any of like does anything connect to any of these women these women these women >> as of everything we currently know today >> as of everything we currently know today >> as of everything we currently know today also no that significant amount of blood also no that significant amount of blood also no that significant amount of blood that they found early on got tested that they found early on got tested that they found early on got tested [music] turns out it's not blood at all [music] turns out it's not blood at all [music] turns out it's not blood at all I don't know if it's like fake blood I I don't know if it's like fake blood I I don't know if it's like fake blood I don't know if it's something that just don't know if it's something that just don't know if it's something that just like looked like blood [music] or maybe like looked like blood [music] or maybe like looked like blood [music] or maybe it's something from one of Raymond's it's something from one of Raymond's it's something from one of Raymond's like quotequote projects like quotequote projects like quotequote projects >> and like all the chemicals the the >> and like all the chemicals the the >> and like all the chemicals the the 55gallon drum 55gallon drum 55gallon drum >> the police haven't even offered covered >> the police haven't even offered covered >> the police haven't even offered covered anything up related to those. [music] At anything up related to those. [music] At anything up related to those. [music] At the same September 16th briefing, a the same September 16th briefing, a the same September 16th briefing, a reporter directly asked for an update on

reporter directly asked for an update on reporter directly asked for an update on the chemical testing. And the answer is the chemical testing. And the answer is the chemical testing. And the answer is basically like nothing to report yet. basically like nothing to report yet. basically like nothing to report yet. Still ongoing. [music] Still ongoing. [music] Still ongoing. [music] So really, they have the digital stuff, So really, they have the digital stuff, So really, they have the digital stuff, but no physical [music] evidence, no but no physical [music] evidence, no but no physical [music] evidence, no bodies, no remains like you're saying bodies, no remains like you're saying bodies, no remains like you're saying connecting to these women. connecting to these women. connecting to these women. >> So I mean my question is like are all >> So I mean my question is like are all >> So I mean my question is like are all the women [music] the women [music] the women [music] actually dead? actually dead? actually dead? >> Exactly. There are seven women that we >> Exactly. There are seven women that we >> Exactly. There are seven women that we have [music] talked about, five that have [music] talked about, five that have [music] talked about, five that police have said are on pictures or police have said are on pictures or police have said are on pictures or footage in some awful way. So, a footage in some awful way. So, a footage in some awful way. So, a reporter actually asked point blank like reporter actually asked point blank like reporter actually asked point blank like you have five women who are on video or you have five women who are on video or you have five women who are on video or like you got pictures of them that they like you got pictures of them that they like you got pictures of them that they appear to be dead. Is that right? And appear to be dead. Is that right? And appear to be dead. Is that right? And the answer that's given is quote, the answer that's given is quote, the answer that's given is quote, [music] "Well, we know they're [music] "Well, we know they're [music] "Well, we know they're unconscious. We know they're not there. unconscious. We know they're not there. unconscious. We know they're not there. people [music] looked at them, but as people [music] looked at them, but as people [music] looked at them, but as long as everything we see is accurate long as everything we see is accurate long as everything we see is accurate and we can't say that yet." [music] End and we can't say that yet." [music] End and we can't say that yet." [music] End quote. So, like the same hedge is like quote. So, like the same hedge is like quote. So, like the same hedge is like applied to all of them at once, applied to all of them at once, applied to all of them at once, >> even though they're out there making >> even though they're out there making >> even though they're out there making like death notifications to family like death notifications to family like death notifications to family members.

members. members. >> Yeah, I guess so. >> Yeah, I guess so. >> Yeah, I guess so. >> So, what about the urns? >> So, what about the urns? >> So, what about the urns? >> Oh, they've they've been digging into >> Oh, they've they've been digging into >> Oh, they've they've been digging into those as well, metaphorically speaking, those as well, metaphorically speaking, those as well, metaphorically speaking, and [music] investigators believe that and [music] investigators believe that and [music] investigators believe that three of the five are accounted for as three of the five are accounted for as three of the five are accounted for as of now. So they think one is Raymond, of now. So they think one is Raymond, of now. So they think one is Raymond, one's another relative, and one is a one's another relative, and one is a one's another relative, and one is a friend. But that does leave two that I friend. But that does leave two that I friend. But that does leave two that I think we're still unsure of. think we're still unsure of. think we're still unsure of. >> I mean, can you even DNA test ashes? >> I mean, can you even DNA test ashes? >> I mean, can you even DNA test ashes? >> From everything I know, not reliably. >> From everything I know, not reliably. >> From everything I know, not reliably. Like, it's my understanding that Like, it's my understanding that Like, it's my understanding that cremation burns at temperatures so high cremation burns at temperatures so high cremation burns at temperatures so high that it destroys most of the DNA that that it destroys most of the DNA that that it destroys most of the DNA that like testing depends on. I mean, like testing depends on. I mean, like testing depends on. I mean, sometimes labs can pull something from sometimes labs can pull something from sometimes labs can pull something from like a surviving bone fragment, but it's like a surviving bone fragment, but it's like a surviving bone fragment, but it's really difficult. So even if one of really difficult. So even if one of really difficult. So even if one of those two unlabeled [music] earns like those two unlabeled [music] earns like those two unlabeled [music] earns like belong to one of these women, they might belong to one of these women, they might belong to one of these women, they might never be able to prove it. Especially if never be able to prove it. Especially if never be able to prove it. Especially if there aren't any like usable bone there aren't any like usable bone there aren't any like usable bone fragments left. fragments left. fragments left. >> No. And there is a chance this could be >> No. And there is a chance this could be >> No. And there is a chance this could be the Achilles heel of this whole case the Achilles heel of this whole case the Achilles heel of this whole case because as it turns out [music] those because as it turns out [music] those because as it turns out [music] those Philadelphia Inquirer reporters that I Philadelphia Inquirer reporters that I Philadelphia Inquirer reporters that I told you about, Ryan W. Briggs, Max told you about, Ryan W. Briggs, Max told you about, Ryan W. Briggs, Max Marin, Barbara Laker, and Ellie Rushing.

Marin, Barbara Laker, and Ellie Rushing. Marin, Barbara Laker, and Ellie Rushing. Well, they figured out that at one time Well, they figured out that at one time Well, they figured out that at one time Raymond had real documented access Raymond had real documented access Raymond had real documented access [music] to an actual crematorium. [music] to an actual crematorium. [music] to an actual crematorium. So, back in 2014, Raymond did this art So, back in 2014, Raymond did this art So, back in 2014, Raymond did this art show in Kensington. And the finale was show in Kensington. And the finale was show in Kensington. And the finale was this video that he claimed shows a real this video that he claimed shows a real this video that he claimed shows a real woman who died of an overdose. And the woman who died of an overdose. And the woman who died of an overdose. And the footage shows her body being loaded into footage shows her body being loaded into footage shows her body being loaded into an incinerator and cremated. and he an incinerator and cremated. and he an incinerator and cremated. and he wrote in his own promotional material, wrote in his own promotional material, wrote in his own promotional material, quote, "The medical examiner totally quote, "The medical examiner totally quote, "The medical examiner totally botched the autopsy and didn't even botched the autopsy and didn't even botched the autopsy and didn't even bother to sew her up properly. My bother to sew her up properly. My bother to sew her up properly. My horrible photograph [music] is all that horrible photograph [music] is all that horrible photograph [music] is all that is left of her, the only trace of her is left of her, the only trace of her is left of her, the only trace of her short, sad existence." [music] short, sad existence." [music] short, sad existence." [music] And it gets just more disturbing because And it gets just more disturbing because And it gets just more disturbing because according to a law enforcement source according to a law enforcement source according to a law enforcement source [music] and people who knew him [music] and people who knew him [music] and people who knew him personally, this wasn't just Raymond personally, this wasn't just Raymond personally, this wasn't just Raymond being shocking for the sake of it. He being shocking for the sake of it. He being shocking for the sake of it. He genuinely had access to a real genuinely had access to a real genuinely had access to a real crematorium [music] connected to the crematorium [music] connected to the crematorium [music] connected to the Garzone funeral home which got shut down Garzone funeral home which got shut down Garzone funeral home which got shut down over an actual illegal body parts over an actual illegal body parts over an actual illegal body parts trafficking scandal years earlier.

trafficking scandal years earlier. trafficking scandal years earlier. Completely separate from this case. The Completely separate from this case. The Completely separate from this case. The Garzone brothers and a business partner Garzone brothers and a business partner Garzone brothers and a business partner were apparently caught selling close to were apparently caught selling close to were apparently caught selling close to like 250 bodies worth of tissue and like 250 bodies worth of tissue and like 250 bodies worth of tissue and bones on the black market. sometimes bones on the black market. sometimes bones on the black market. sometimes leaving bodies unrefrigerated in an leaving bodies unrefrigerated in an leaving bodies unrefrigerated in an alley behind the funeral home for days alley behind the funeral home for days alley behind the funeral home for days before parts were harvested. And all before parts were harvested. And all before parts were harvested. And all three ended up [music] getting three ended up [music] getting three ended up [music] getting convicted. The brothers, Lewis and convicted. The brothers, Lewis and convicted. The brothers, Lewis and Gerald Garzone, they plead guilty in Gerald Garzone, they plead guilty in Gerald Garzone, they plead guilty in 2008 to running a corrupt organization, 2008 to running a corrupt organization, 2008 to running a corrupt organization, conspiracy, [music] conspiracy, [music] conspiracy, [music] theft, and abuse of corpse. And they theft, and abuse of corpse. And they theft, and abuse of corpse. And they were each sentenced to 8 to 20 years in were each sentenced to 8 to 20 years in were each sentenced to 8 to 20 years in prison. Now, their partner in the prison. Now, their partner in the prison. Now, their partner in the crematorium, James McAffrey Jr., also crematorium, James McAffrey Jr., also crematorium, James McAffrey Jr., also plead guilty to running a corrupt plead guilty to running a corrupt plead guilty to running a corrupt organization, conspiracy, [music] and organization, conspiracy, [music] and organization, conspiracy, [music] and theft. And he was sentenced to 3 and a theft. And he was sentenced to 3 and a theft. And he was sentenced to 3 and a half to 10 years. That whole thing, half to 10 years. That whole thing, half to 10 years. That whole thing, honestly, is like a horrifying case all honestly, is like a horrifying case all honestly, is like a horrifying case all on its own. on its own. on its own. >> Yeah. And how did Raymond have access to >> Yeah. And how did Raymond have access to >> Yeah. And how did Raymond have access to this place? Well, so according to people this place? Well, so according to people this place? Well, so according to people who knew Raymond, who then talked to the who knew Raymond, who then talked to the who knew Raymond, who then talked to the Inquirer, he got into that building by Inquirer, he got into that building by Inquirer, he got into that building by paying somebody off, allegedly giving a paying somebody off, allegedly giving a paying somebody off, allegedly giving a guy named George Nuome drugs and cash guy named George Nuome drugs and cash guy named George Nuome drugs and cash just so that he could get close [music] just so that he could get close [music] just so that he could get close [music] enough to film actual human remains. And enough to film actual human remains. And enough to film actual human remains. And I say allegedly because George died in I say allegedly because George died in I say allegedly because George died in 2014, so like [music] no one's been able 2014, so like [music] no one's been able 2014, so like [music] no one's been able to confirm it. And the Garzone to confirm it. And the Garzone to confirm it. And the Garzone crematorium itself actually closed back crematorium itself actually closed back crematorium itself actually closed back in 2007. From what the Inquirer in 2007. From what the Inquirer in 2007. From what the Inquirer reported, Raymon's access there goes reported, Raymon's access there goes reported, Raymon's access there goes back to the early 2000s though when it back to the early 2000s though when it back to the early 2000s though when it was still operating. [music] was still operating. [music] was still operating. [music] And that 2014 art show, Raymond said And that 2014 art show, Raymond said And that 2014 art show, Raymond said that it was shot somewhere else entirely

that it was shot somewhere else entirely that it was shot somewhere else entirely at a Kensington warehouse where the city at a Kensington warehouse where the city at a Kensington warehouse where the city morg sent unidentified remains. [music] morg sent unidentified remains. [music] morg sent unidentified remains. [music] Now, when our reporter spoke to Now, when our reporter spoke to Now, when our reporter spoke to journalist Max Marin about this, he made journalist Max Marin about this, he made journalist Max Marin about this, he made it clear this isn't like a here's where it clear this isn't like a here's where it clear this isn't like a here's where the bodies went kind of situation. It's the bodies went kind of situation. It's the bodies went kind of situation. It's more like this is just proof that more like this is just proof that more like this is just proof that Raymond had a real established pattern Raymond had a real established pattern Raymond had a real established pattern of seeking out actual human remains for of seeking out actual human remains for of seeking out actual human remains for what he referred to as art way before what he referred to as art way before what he referred to as art way before any of this became a criminal any of this became a criminal any of this became a criminal investigation. [music] And police are investigation. [music] And police are investigation. [music] And police are now actively looking into his connection now actively looking into his connection now actively looking into his connection to that crematorium as part of their to that crematorium as part of their to that crematorium as part of their broader investigation. But Max made sure broader investigation. But Max made sure broader investigation. But Max made sure to emphasize the timeline surrounding to emphasize the timeline surrounding to emphasize the timeline surrounding [music] Raymond's access to the [music] Raymond's access to the [music] Raymond's access to the crematorium doesn't directly line up crematorium doesn't directly line up crematorium doesn't directly line up with any of the women that we know with any of the women that we know with any of the women that we know about. At least [music] not the ones we about. At least [music] not the ones we about. At least [music] not the ones we know about so far. know about so far. know about so far. >> Right? So what are we missing here? Like >> Right? So what are we missing here? Like >> Right? So what are we missing here? Like where are the remains? Where are the where are the remains? Where are the where are the remains? Where are the missing women? missing women? missing women? >> That is the milliondoll question. It >> That is the milliondoll question. It >> That is the milliondoll question. It [music] is something that haunts me and [music] is something that haunts me and [music] is something that haunts me and I don't know, dude. I just cannot stop I don't know, dude. I just cannot stop I don't know, dude. I just cannot stop thinking about the old horse house, the thinking about the old horse house, the thinking about the old horse house, the one in Shaon in Bucks [music] County, one in Shaon in Bucks [music] County, one in Shaon in Bucks [music] County, because think about it, Raymond lived because think about it, Raymond lived because think about it, Raymond lived there for a long time before Ali.

there for a long time before Ali. there for a long time before Ali. >> And what we heard from neighbors there >> And what we heard from neighbors there >> And what we heard from neighbors there only adds to my uneasiness about [music] only adds to my uneasiness about [music] only adds to my uneasiness about [music] the whole thing. Like none of it's the whole thing. Like none of it's the whole thing. Like none of it's actually proof of anything. But one actually proof of anything. But one actually proof of anything. But one neighbor we spoke to described seeing a neighbor we spoke to described seeing a neighbor we spoke to described seeing a hired groundskeeper hired groundskeeper hired groundskeeper >> and they were like constantly moving >> and they were like constantly moving >> and they were like constantly moving dirt and stone with a wheelbarrow like dirt and stone with a wheelbarrow like dirt and stone with a wheelbarrow like into the backyard. And their point was into the backyard. And their point was into the backyard. And their point was like that yard never showed any signs of like that yard never showed any signs of like that yard never showed any signs of landscaping. It was always a hot mess. landscaping. It was always a hot mess. landscaping. It was always a hot mess. No garden, nothing to show for all that No garden, nothing to show for all that No garden, nothing to show for all that work. Yeah. work. Yeah. work. Yeah. >> And something nearly every neighbor we >> And something nearly every neighbor we >> And something nearly every neighbor we spoke to brought up was that they all spoke to brought up was that they all spoke to brought up was that they all described seeing barrels around the described seeing barrels around the described seeing barrels around the property. And remember Jeremy Eugene's property. And remember Jeremy Eugene's property. And remember Jeremy Eugene's friend from growing up in the friend from growing up in the friend from growing up in the neighborhood we spoke to. neighborhood we spoke to. neighborhood we spoke to. >> He guessed that there were at least >> He guessed that there were at least >> He guessed that there were at least [music] [music] [music] 15 total barrels at one point. And he 15 total barrels at one point. And he 15 total barrels at one point. And he believed at least some of them were full believed at least some of them were full believed at least some of them were full of something because he and Eugene would of something because he and Eugene would of something because he and Eugene would climb on them as kids and they didn't climb on them as kids and they didn't climb on them as kids and they didn't like tip over. And when he even asked like tip over. And when he even asked like tip over. And when he even asked about it at one point, he remembers about it at one point, he remembers about it at one point, he remembers hearing that it was like dark room hearing that it was like dark room hearing that it was like dark room chemicals for his like photography or chemicals for his like photography or chemicals for his like photography or something. But like looking back in something. But like looking back in something. But like looking back in hindsight, he's like, "Why would you hindsight, he's like, "Why would you hindsight, he's like, "Why would you need that much of like a dark room need that much of like a dark room need that much of like a dark room chemical?"

chemical?" chemical?" >> I mean, that could at least explain >> I mean, that could at least explain >> I mean, that could at least explain maybe some of the stuff they found at maybe some of the stuff they found at maybe some of the stuff they found at the house in AliE too. I mean, even the house in AliE too. I mean, even the house in AliE too. I mean, even during like the most recent raid. during like the most recent raid. during like the most recent raid. >> Yeah, but emphasis on some. >> Yeah, but emphasis on some. >> Yeah, but emphasis on some. >> Right. While our reporter was talking to >> Right. While our reporter was talking to >> Right. While our reporter was talking to Max Marin, he brought up the fact that Max Marin, he brought up the fact that Max Marin, he brought up the fact that both Raymond and Eugene were also into both Raymond and Eugene were also into both Raymond and Eugene were also into like horiculture and [music] growing like horiculture and [music] growing like horiculture and [music] growing stuff, chemistry, like those were their stuff, chemistry, like those were their stuff, chemistry, like those were their hobbies. So again, could there be an hobbies. So again, could there be an hobbies. So again, could there be an innocent explanation for all the innocent explanation for all the innocent explanation for all the chemicals and stuff? I don't know. Has chemicals and stuff? I don't know. Has chemicals and stuff? I don't know. Has anyone actually gone back and searched anyone actually gone back and searched anyone actually gone back and searched that first property? that first property? that first property? >> So this is the big thing for me. As of >> So this is the big thing for me. As of >> So this is the big thing for me. As of this recording, which is happening this recording, which is happening this recording, which is happening Tuesday, September 29th, 2026, Tuesday, September 29th, 2026, Tuesday, September 29th, 2026, Philadelphia police have confirmed that Philadelphia police have confirmed that Philadelphia police have confirmed that they have not searched the Sha property they have not searched the Sha property they have not searched the Sha property as part of this current investigation, as part of this current investigation, as part of this current investigation, which is why like we like me and the which is why like we like me and the which is why like we like me and the reporters have been obsessing over this reporters have been obsessing over this reporters have been obsessing over this because this house is [music] like because this house is [music] like because this house is [music] like everything to me. everything to me. everything to me. >> It feels like where it started. >> It feels like where it started. >> It feels like where it started. >> Yeah. And here is something that makes >> Yeah. And here is something that makes >> Yeah. And here is something that makes this feel even more urgent. Something this feel even more urgent. Something this feel even more urgent. Something [music] [music] [music] that I think is honestly huge and hasn't that I think is honestly huge and hasn't that I think is honestly huge and hasn't gotten nearly enough attention. Remember gotten nearly enough attention. Remember gotten nearly enough attention. Remember that 2009 bus, the one that sent Raymond that 2009 bus, the one that sent Raymond that 2009 bus, the one that sent Raymond to prison.

to prison. to prison. >> A retired New Britain Township police >> A retired New Britain Township police >> A retired New Britain Township police chief actually went on the record with chief actually went on the record with chief actually went on the record with six ABC [music] six ABC [music] six ABC [music] News about that search recently. And News about that search recently. And News about that search recently. And what he confirmed is wild. what he confirmed is wild. what he confirmed is wild. In his own words, quote, "As a part of In his own words, quote, "As a part of In his own words, quote, "As a part of the investigation, firearms were found. the investigation, firearms were found. the investigation, firearms were found. There were also IDs [music] of various There were also IDs [music] of various There were also IDs [music] of various females. There were a few of them. The females. There were a few of them. The females. There were a few of them. The DA's office took them [music] and were DA's office took them [music] and were DA's office took them [music] and were going to follow up. I really don't know going to follow up. I really don't know going to follow up. I really don't know what happened after that." End quote. what happened after that." End quote. what happened after that." End quote. Ashley, who are these women? Nobody has Ashley, who are these women? Nobody has Ashley, who are these women? Nobody has ever said whose IDs those were. Nobody ever said whose IDs those were. Nobody ever said whose IDs those were. Nobody has confirmed if they were ever actually has confirmed if they were ever actually has confirmed if they were ever actually investigated or if they even still have investigated or if they even still have investigated or if they even still have them stored somewhere at this point or a them stored somewhere at this point or a them stored somewhere at this point or a list of them. Like, were they simply list of them. Like, were they simply list of them. Like, were they simply left behind by guests? [music] Or is it left behind by guests? [music] Or is it left behind by guests? [music] Or is it something more sinister? Like, it's been something more sinister? Like, it's been something more sinister? Like, it's been 17 years and that thread has never been 17 years and that thread has never been 17 years and that thread has never been publicly closed, which is unreal to me publicly closed, which is unreal to me publicly closed, which is unreal to me since this whole thing started with the since this whole thing started with the since this whole thing started with the ID that had a missing woman's ID that had a missing woman's ID that had a missing woman's information on it. Again though, information on it. Again though, information on it. Again though, technically when it comes to the technically when it comes to the technically when it comes to the timeline at least with the names of timeline at least with the names of timeline at least with the names of these women we know so far and the dates these women we know so far and the dates these women we know so far and the dates we have so [music] far, none of the we have so [music] far, none of the we have so [music] far, none of the victims we know like match up or could victims we know like match up or could victims we know like match up or could be linked to the Shaont house. Like the be linked to the Shaont house. Like the be linked to the Shaont house. Like the timeline doesn't [music] work. Raymond timeline doesn't [music] work. Raymond timeline doesn't [music] work. Raymond lost that house sometime after his 2009 lost that house sometime after his 2009 lost that house sometime after his 2009 arrest. And every one of the seven women arrest. And every one of the seven women arrest. And every one of the seven women we've talked about today have known we've talked about today have known we've talked about today have known disappearance dates from like 2012

disappearance dates from like 2012 disappearance dates from like 2012 [music] [music] [music] onward. So after that, onward. So after that, onward. So after that, >> right? But is that because there was >> right? But is that because there was >> right? But is that because there was nothing before that or because nobody's nothing before that or because nobody's nothing before that or because nobody's ever said what happened with the ever said what happened with the ever said what happened with the evidence that they do have like I don't evidence that they do have like I don't evidence that they do have like I don't know the IDs know the IDs know the IDs >> that Yes. [music] So our reporting team >> that Yes. [music] So our reporting team >> that Yes. [music] So our reporting team was going hard at this house. Remember was going hard at this house. Remember was going hard at this house. Remember that steel door that Jeremy saw during that steel door that Jeremy saw during that steel door that Jeremy saw during the rebuild? The one that he was told the rebuild? The one that he was told the rebuild? The one that he was told was like going to be like a safe room or was like going to be like a safe room or was like going to be like a safe room or something? something? something? >> Well, it sounds like Jeremy's memory >> Well, it sounds like Jeremy's memory >> Well, it sounds like Jeremy's memory checks [music] out. One of the neighbors checks [music] out. One of the neighbors checks [music] out. One of the neighbors we spoke to told us that the family who we spoke to told us that the family who we spoke to told us that the family who lives there now found what they referred lives there now found what they referred lives there now found what they referred to as a large safe built [music] right to as a large safe built [music] right to as a large safe built [music] right into the basement foundation. So big into the basement foundation. So big into the basement foundation. So big that they can't take it out without like that they can't take it out without like that they can't take it out without like tearing up the foundation. Now they tearing up the foundation. Now they tearing up the foundation. Now they opened it when they bought the house or opened it when they bought the house or opened it when they bought the house or whatever. It was empty. Nothing left whatever. It was empty. Nothing left whatever. It was empty. Nothing left behind in it or anything like that. But behind in it or anything like that. But behind in it or anything like that. But this neighbor said it's not the kind of this neighbor said it's not the kind of this neighbor said it's not the kind of safe that you necessarily keep things safe that you necessarily keep things safe that you necessarily keep things in. like it's big. Big enough that they in. like it's big. Big enough that they in. like it's big. Big enough that they say people could fit inside. And that's say people could fit inside. And that's say people could fit inside. And that's not the only thing that was hidden in not the only thing that was hidden in not the only thing that was hidden in that house. Other neighbors, a couple that house. Other neighbors, a couple that house. Other neighbors, a couple who live across the street, told us that who live across the street, told us that who live across the street, told us that they heard this story about how years they heard this story about how years they heard this story about how years later after this house was sold to new later after this house was sold to new later after this house was sold to new owners, those residents were doing owners, those residents were doing owners, those residents were doing renovations and they found something renovations and they found something renovations and they found something hidden inside the garage walls.

hidden inside the garage walls. hidden inside the garage walls. Homemade DVDs. Homemade DVDs. Homemade DVDs. They just assumed that they were like They just assumed that they were like They just assumed that they were like old family movies, so they just tossed old family movies, so they just tossed old family movies, so they just tossed them in the dumpster, which like I don't them in the dumpster, which like I don't them in the dumpster, which like I don't know if that's like the normal person know if that's like the normal person know if that's like the normal person move. move. move. >> You would never do that. >> You would never do that. >> You would never do that. >> There is not a world in which I would >> There is not a world in which I would >> There is not a world in which I would not have popped in every single one of not have popped in every single one of not have popped in every single one of those DVDs and watched them start to those DVDs and watched them start to those DVDs and watched them start to finish looking for some like mystery to finish looking for some like mystery to finish looking for some like mystery to solve proactively. But that's like the solve proactively. But that's like the solve proactively. But that's like the crime junkie in me. And also like crime junkie in me. And also like crime junkie in me. And also like homemade tapes or videos were in like homemade tapes or videos were in like homemade tapes or videos were in like the live show that we did like we're the live show that we did like we're the live show that we did like we're like very in tune to them like very in tune to them like very in tune to them >> and I come back to like >> and I come back to like >> and I come back to like >> what could have been on it? What other >> what could have been on it? What other >> what could have been on it? What other >> could have been on them? >> could have been on them? >> could have been on them? >> Yeah. Like [music] do we even want to >> Yeah. Like [music] do we even want to >> Yeah. Like [music] do we even want to know? Especially knowing the kind of know? Especially knowing the kind of know? Especially knowing the kind of stuff that would pop up in front of his stuff that would pop up in front of his stuff that would pop up in front of his own kid and his like his kid's friend. own kid and his like his kid's friend. own kid and his like his kid's friend. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I can't imagine the kind of stuff that >> I can't imagine the kind of stuff that >> I can't imagine the kind of stuff that Raymond was working hard to hide in Raymond was working hard to hide in Raymond was working hard to hide in garage walls. It would be hard to look garage walls. It would be hard to look garage walls. It would be hard to look at. God, it would have been worth it if at. God, it would have been worth it if at. God, it would have been worth it if they could have and maybe it could help they could have and maybe it could help they could have and maybe it could help connect investigators to more potential connect investigators to more potential connect investigators to more potential women. [music] And I have no doubt that women. [music] And I have no doubt that women. [music] And I have no doubt that there are so many more women that we're there are so many more women that we're there are so many more women that we're going to hear about. [music] Though, not going to hear about. [music] Though, not going to hear about. [music] Though, not every woman on a video or in an image every woman on a video or in an image every woman on a video or in an image met the same fate. [music] met the same fate. [music] met the same fate. [music] Deputy Police Commissioner Venor said at Deputy Police Commissioner Venor said at Deputy Police Commissioner Venor said at that September 16th presser that out of that September 16th presser that out of that September 16th presser that out of everything they'd reviewed so far at the everything they'd reviewed so far at the everything they'd reviewed so far at the time, which was still only like a third time, which was still only like a third time, which was still only like a third of it. They had identified close to 60 of it. They had identified close to 60 of it. They had identified close to 60 [music] different people in the footage [music] different people in the footage [music] different people in the footage and images. Now, five of them are the and images. Now, five of them are the and images. Now, five of them are the women that we've already talked about,

women that we've already talked about, women that we've already talked about, the ones who appear lifeless. 10 of them the ones who appear lifeless. 10 of them the ones who appear lifeless. 10 of them were IDed but found to have died of were IDed but found to have died of were IDed but found to have died of overdoses since, but at other locations overdoses since, but at other locations overdoses since, but at other locations entirely, not the only house. and after entirely, not the only house. and after entirely, not the only house. and after whatever was captured of them on the whatever was captured of them on the whatever was captured of them on the hard drives. 16 were found alive, hard drives. 16 were found alive, hard drives. 16 were found alive, interviewed, but apparently weren't interviewed, but apparently weren't interviewed, but apparently weren't cooperative. [music] Another 25 are cooperative. [music] Another 25 are cooperative. [music] Another 25 are alive and at the time of this presser alive and at the time of this presser alive and at the time of this presser were scheduled for interviews. So, I were scheduled for interviews. So, I were scheduled for interviews. So, I don't know if those have happened yet. don't know if those have happened yet. don't know if those have happened yet. And finally, three people actually And finally, three people actually And finally, three people actually called police themselves just to say called police themselves just to say called police themselves just to say like, "Hey, you're going to see us in like, "Hey, you're going to see us in like, "Hey, you're going to see us in the footage eventually, but we are not the footage eventually, but we are not the footage eventually, but we are not coming in." coming in." coming in." I mean, I feel like this is just like I mean, I feel like this is just like I mean, I feel like this is just like the tip of the iceberg case. the tip of the iceberg case. the tip of the iceberg case. >> Totally. Because, by the way, that list >> Totally. Because, by the way, that list >> Totally. Because, by the way, that list of close to 60 I just mentioned, as far of close to 60 I just mentioned, as far of close to 60 I just mentioned, as far as we know, didn't include the two as we know, didn't include the two as we know, didn't include the two missing women who were last seen [music] missing women who were last seen [music] missing women who were last seen [music] at the horse house, Blair and Amy. But at the horse house, Blair and Amy. But at the horse house, Blair and Amy. But again, I want to remind everyone that again, I want to remind everyone that again, I want to remind everyone that Eugene Horsch has not been charged in Eugene Horsch has not been charged in Eugene Horsch has not been charged in connection with any crimes related to connection with any crimes related to connection with any crimes related to the [music] images, videos, or the the [music] images, videos, or the the [music] images, videos, or the missing women. As of this recording, he missing women. As of this recording, he missing women. As of this recording, he faces two federal charges related to the faces two federal charges related to the faces two federal charges related to the search of his vehicle. So, possession of search of his vehicle. So, possession of search of his vehicle. So, possession of a firearm by [music] a felon and a firearm by [music] a felon and a firearm by [music] a felon and possession of an unlawfully produced possession of an unlawfully produced possession of an unlawfully produced document and authentication feature.

document and authentication feature. document and authentication feature. [music] And while his attorney, Jerome [music] And while his attorney, Jerome [music] And while his attorney, Jerome Brown, didn't get back to us, he has Brown, didn't get back to us, he has Brown, didn't get back to us, he has said, quote, "We believe Mr. Horsch is said, quote, "We believe Mr. Horsch is said, quote, "We believe Mr. Horsch is innocent." [music] We reached out to law innocent." [music] We reached out to law innocent." [music] We reached out to law enforcement agencies involved in this enforcement agencies involved in this enforcement agencies involved in this case for comment, too, and they declined case for comment, too, and they declined case for comment, too, and they declined because this is a very active and because this is a very active and because this is a very active and ongoing investigation. We also tried ongoing investigation. We also tried ongoing investigation. We also tried family members of all of the women that family members of all of the women that family members of all of the women that we discussed in this episode, but most we discussed in this episode, but most we discussed in this episode, but most of them were either unable to speak with of them were either unable to speak with of them were either unable to speak with us at this time or didn't [music] get us at this time or didn't [music] get us at this time or didn't [music] get back to us. Investigators have gone back to us. Investigators have gone back to us. Investigators have gone through a fraction of one house's through a fraction of one house's through a fraction of one house's evidence and already found what we've evidence and already found what we've evidence and already found what we've talked about today. talked about today. talked about today. >> More people in that [music] same footage >> More people in that [music] same footage >> More people in that [music] same footage are still just faces in a file. So, this are still just faces in a file. So, this are still just faces in a file. So, this is where we need crime junkies to pay is where we need crime junkies to pay is where we need crime junkies to pay attention. [music] attention. [music] attention. [music] If you have anything, a name, a memory, If you have anything, a name, a memory, If you have anything, a name, a memory, a bad feeling you never said [music] out a bad feeling you never said [music] out a bad feeling you never said [music] out loud, please reach out to the loud, please reach out to the loud, please reach out to the Philadelphia police or FBI's [music] Philadelphia police or FBI's [music] Philadelphia police or FBI's [music] Philadelphia field office. Because right Philadelphia field office. Because right Philadelphia field office. Because right now, neither of the two men who might now, neither of the two men who might now, neither of the two men who might actually have those answers are talking.

actually have those answers are talking. actually have those answers are talking. Eugene himself hasn't commented Eugene himself hasn't commented Eugene himself hasn't commented publicly, and Raymond never [music] publicly, and Raymond never [music] publicly, and Raymond never [music] will. He's dead. He'll never have to will. He's dead. He'll never have to will. He's dead. He'll never have to answer for any of this, whatever this answer for any of this, whatever this answer for any of this, whatever this turns out to be. turns out to be. turns out to be. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> And that's even if we ever learn the >> And that's even if we ever learn the >> And that's even if we ever learn the full truth. Per the Philadelphia full truth. Per the Philadelphia full truth. Per the Philadelphia Inquirer, in one of his own books, Inquirer, in one of his own books, Inquirer, in one of his own books, Raymond once wrote, quote, "Would it Raymond once wrote, quote, "Would it Raymond once wrote, quote, "Would it surprise [music] you to learn that I'm surprise [music] you to learn that I'm surprise [music] you to learn that I'm lying?" lying?" lying?" Well, at this point, I think the scarier Well, at this point, I think the scarier Well, at this point, I think the scarier [music] question might be, would it [music] question might be, would it [music] question might be, would it surprise you to learn that he wasn't? surprise you to learn that he wasn't? surprise you to learn that he wasn't? Crime Junkie is an audiochuck Crime Junkie is an audiochuck Crime Junkie is an audiochuck production. production. production. I think Chuck would approve.